From Cashier to the Face of REI, Designing a Water Bottle in a Fit of Rage, and the Geotagging Debate with Miranda Webster (BPR #372)

In today’s episode of Backpacker Radio presented by The Trek, brought to you by onX Backcountry and Topo Athletic, we are joined by Miranda Webster, the creator behind Miranda Goes Outside- a former 12-year REI employee turned full-time outdoor content creator.

In this one, Miranda breaks down her journey from an outdoorsy novice working as an REI cashier to amassing over 200,000 YouTube subscribers, the detailed process of designing her popular Migo water bottle to fix the smart water bottle’s flaws, and why she firmly believes creators should never gatekeep public land locations.

We also cover her tactics for managing POTS and chronic migraines in the backcountry, her go-to fueling strategy of packing tinned fish and liquid meal replacements, some of her standout current favorite backpacking gear, and her golden rules for creating YouTube content without selling out for cheap clicks.

We wrap the show with covering our personal bests and worsts from our Pacific Northwest road trip, a breakdown of the gear Katie relies on when she’s not testing new products, I update my sun hoodie rankings with a new score for The North Face Summit Series, a Triple Crown of foods you physically can’t stop eating once you start- including the incident with Jabba’s burning penis, a of course a listener shares their poop story.

Watch / Listen

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Interview with Miranda Webster

• Miranda’s Youtube
• Miranda’s Instagram

Reminders: Apply to vlog or blog for the Trek, apply to be a Trail Correspondent, listen to our episodes ad-free on Patreon, and subscribe to The Trek’s Youtube!

10:33 – Miranda’s origin story: from city kid to REI cashier

26:32 – Her gear philosophy and love of colorful gear

30:51 – Managing chronic migraines and POTS on trail

37:12 – The gatekeeping/geotagging debate

42:48 – How the YouTube channel started with Rainer at REI

56:03 – Designing the Migo water bottle

70:40 – Transition from REI scripted videos to her own brand

86:30 – Lessons from Rainer on YouTube success

1:41:02 – Peak performance/fueling: tinned fish and hydration

1:53:00 – Pacific Northwest road trip bests and worsts

2:11:03 – Triple Crown of foods you can’t stop eating

2:39:30 – Listener mailbag and poop story

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Full Transcript

In today’s episode of Backpack Radio presented by Trek, brought to you by onX Backcountry and Topo Athletic, we are joined by Miranda Webster, the creator behind Miranda Goes Outside, a former 12-year REI employee turned full-time outdoor content creator. In this one, Miranda breaks down her journey from an outdoorsy novice working as an REI cashier to amassing over 200,000 YouTube subscribers, the detailed process of designing her popular Migo water bottle to fix the smart water bottle’s flaws, and why she firmly believes creators should never gatekeep public land locations.

We also cover her tactics for managing POTS and chronic migraines in the backcountry, her go-to fueling strategy of packing TinFish and liquid meal replacements, some of her standout current favorite backpacking gear, and her golden rule for creating YouTube content without selling out for cheap clicks.

We wrap the show with covering our personal bests and worsts from the Pacific Northwest road trip thus far, a breakdown of the gear Katie relies on when she’s not testing new products. I update my sun hoodie rankings with a new score for the North Face Summit Series, a triple crown of foods that you physically can’t stop eating once you start, including the incident with Java’s burning penis.

And of course, a listener shares their poop story. But first… Serious backpackers know a reliable navigation app is an absolute necessity. Whether you’re taking on a thru-hike or heading into the wilderness for a few nights with friends, you need your routing to be dialed in. That’s why we’re thrilled to introduce today’s sponsor, onX Backcountry.

onX is built for all hikers and backpackers, but if you’re the person in your squad who ends up building the route, picking the campsite, and fielding the where the heck are we questions, you’re especially going to love this app. The 3D mapping and LiDAR-based topo give you a level of terrain detail most apps can’t touch, and the pre-trip route building tools make planning for your group easy as can be.

Their platform is intuitive and, dare I say, fun to use. One feature I especially enjoy is the dispersed camping layer available through the elite plan. It shows you exactly where legal dispersed camping is allowed, so you can be confident about where you call it a day at the end of the day. This is awesome while thru-hiking, on a short backpacking trip, or even on a road trip.

And holy moly, discount alert. You can score a 70% discount off a premium plan with onX Backcountry with code TREK70. That’s T-R-E-K-7-0. Again, that’s 70% off a premium plan with code TREK70. Download onX Backcountry today and navigate like a pro A backpacker’s most important piece of gear is their footwear.

You can have the rest of your pack absolutely dialed in, but if your feet aren’t happy, you aren’t happy. And that’s why we’re thrilled to introduce today’s sponsor, Topo Athletic. If you tuned into our footwear episode with Dr. Courtney Conley, a physician specializing in foot and gait mechanics, you already know that Topo Athletic was on her shortlist of brands she recommends for hikers.

That’s because Topo Athletic makes trail runners with a zero or minimal drop and a roomy toe box. The minimal drop promotes a more natural gait, while the wide toe box allows your toes to fully splay. Thru-hikers have caught on to Topos as well. According to the Trek’s AT Thru-Hiker Survey, Topo went from not even cracking the list four years ago to being the second most used brand in the Trek’s most recent survey, narrowly missing out on the top spot.

Topo Athletic is beloved by thru-hikers for their superior durability and grippy outsoles, in addition to the minimal drop and wide toe box. Our gear reviewers have reported getting anywhere from 600 to 1,000 miles out of a single pair of Topos before needing a replacement. This can save you not hundreds, but more than $1,000 over the course of a single thru-hike.

All Topo shoes utilize their Vibram outsoles, which is both grippy and durable, a rare combination. Typically, you have to pick one or the other. Chance and I have both been rocking Topo Athletic. Chance wore the Pursuit 2s for the full Northville Placid Trail and many miles since. I’ve put in hundreds of miles in my Pursuit 2s over the last couple of years, including a thru-hike of Tour du Mont Blanc, without even an ounce of foot discomfort.

All right, here’s the part you’ve been waiting for, the discount. Backpack Radio listeners can score a 15% discount by using code TREK15HIKE, new code, at checkout at topoathletic.com. Again, use code TREK15HIKE, the number 15, at checkout at topoathletic.com for your new favorite pair of trail runners. This discount is only valid on full price items and is only good for a limited time, so do not wait

Welcome to Backpacker Radio, presented by The Trek, brought to you by ONX, Backcountry, and Topo Athletic. Thank you to our wonderful sponsors. I am your co-host, Zach “Badger” Davis, and I got a couple of homies sitting to my right. They are… Katie Jackson, AKA Double Dip. I am Jabba, AKA The Real Hiking Viking.

You guys know who these guys are. We don’t even have to say your names anymore. Perfect. Let’s get to a few reminders before we get to today’s awesome interview. First and foremost, we are at the time of the year where you guys need to submit your AT and PCT finisher photos each year. Woo. Yeah, each year we feature the summit photos.

The PCT’s gonna be kind of a sad makeshift- Shitshow … situation this year. Oh, yeah, no, but it’ll be interesting to see what people- Yeah, what they do … drum up. Yeah. I think I’ve seen a few makeshift monuments, and I think that’s fun. And when life gives you lemons, go on. Dude, these are, these are some fat fucking lemons, though.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s a juicy lemon. This is the best. It’s mostly the sweet- It’s gonna be- … citrus kind … pretty bitter lemonade. Did I see that somebody recreated the southern terminus somewhere? I don’t know. Like, out of cardboard. Someone recreated the northern terminus out of cardboard. Oh, is that what they did?

Yeah. I thought it was… I, for some reason, I thought it was the southern terminus. Yeah. Okay. But I think that was at Hart’s Pass, so I don’t even think you- Ah … can get there anymore at this point. Oh, no. Yeah. Okay, then, pfft, the cardboard’s already deteriorated and rotten anyways. Yeah. Bitter lemon. Moral of the story is we still wanna celebrate you guys because you’re incredible, so please head to the link in the show notes to submit those photos, ’cause we will be featuring you regardless of where you finish.

A finish is a finish. It’s not your fault. That’s how the PCT goes. Yeah. There’s nothing to say. Unless it is your fault- Yeah … then you only have yourself to blame. Yeah. If you started the fire- Yeah … don’t submit a photo. And the good news is you get to come back and hike Washington again. That’s the beauty of stopping at I-90 for some people with Snoqualmie.

You have a whole beautiful section to the border next year to do. Yeah. Okay. Uh, next reminder is this is the very last call for the sales role. Literally, I think I’m gonna wrap it tomorrow, so if you’re hearing this and you have minimum two to three years sales experience, we are hiring a full-time sales role, our first full-time sales role, hopefully to enable future hires.

Nope, no noise.

She made a noise. Eep. Uh, but yeah, if, if you haven’t thrown your hat into the ring and you wanna get a full-time gig at the Trek, this is one of the very rare opportunities to do so. Um, link is in the show notes. Last but not least, patreon.com/backpackerradio is where you can go to support your favorite backpacking crew.

Uh, Katie and I have recently been doing a new trail news podcast on the side, codename Trail News. Uh, we’re three episodes in at this point. I’m sure by the time this comes out we’ll probably be up to four or five, but, uh, yeah. What are some of the subjects we’ve talked about? It’s been great. We covered the Forest Service workers that were kidnapped and held at gunpoint.

Yep. We broke down the results of the survey of our Triple Crowners, and I’m trying to remember the very first one we did. Uh, the rollback of Bears Ears and- Yes … Grand Tr- or yeah. Grand Staircase-Escalante Staircase. Yeah, that’s right. It’s nice. It’s like 20 minutes, hot topic of the week on trails. Yeah. The thing that we complain about here at Backpacker Radio, ’cause, uh, we’re recording this, uh, t- actually, this one’s pretty short lead time by our standards, but most podcasts are recorded, like, a month before they come out, and not conducive for news, but the ones that we’ve been doing for the Patreon specifically ha- are coming out 20 minutes after we record, so a much faster turnaround, much more conducive for trail news.

Are you guys doing this in person? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we did one remotely, and we’re gonna do future ones remotely, and we’re gonna rope in Elise to that, so- Nice. Cool … it’s gonna be a fun ongoing series. But yeah, patreon.com/backpackerradio. You get that series. You also get every episode advertisement free. It’s a fucking very good deal.

All right. Let’s get to today’s very fun interview with none other than Miranda Webster. Sweet. I’m gonna try not to burp now that I took- … a big sip of Celsius. So- It’s a burp-friendly podcast. Okay. I was gonna say, I literally was trying to manufacture a burp right after you said that, but- Wow, how impressive.

I, I medically cannot burp, so I’ve actually never burped. Oh, my gosh. Are you an airier person? Yes Yeah? Are you? No one’s ever heard of this. Really? Oh my God. I, I don’t know what that means. There are dozens of us. Yeah. That’s it. Do we have two of them in the room right now? No, no, no. Oh, no, I’m a full-fledged burpling.

I- My dad taught me to burp on cue when I was, like, five years old, um, which was, like, maybe one of his proudest moments, I think. But I have a friend who, yeah, she, she is- Yeah, can’t burp … in her 30s. She can’t burp. Yeah, and she tries really hard. Yeah. It’s kinda cute. We, we have to include this in the podcast.

So, uh- Start the intro, but note- All right. … note to Chris that start at whatever we, conversation we just had. So we are joined today by Miranda Webster. Miranda is the creator behind Miranda Goes Outside. After over a decade of working for outdoor re- retail giant REI, Miranda started her channels focused on sharing knowledge, enthusiasm, and comradery in the outdoors.

Miranda Goes Outside has amassed 200,000 subscribers in just a few years. Miranda, thank you so much for joining us here on- Thank you so much for joining us … Backpacker. Also, very well done. Thank you, Katie. I only stumbled once. It was really good. Uh, yeah, thank you for being here on Backpacker Radio. What…

Tell us about your origin story to being in the outdoors. Oh, sure. Yeah. Um, so I was not… I did not grow up, like outdoorsy. Um, I didn’t really start getting into hiking and backpacking at all until I started working for REI. So I grew up in a, like a suburb of Washington, DC. Very much was like a city kid born and raised.

And, uh, when I was going into college, I needed a part-time job. My sister was pretty out- Where’d you go to school? Oh, I went to… Where did I go to college or what? Right. College. Yeah. You don’t know where my high school is, right. Sorry. I went to- Who, who’s your middle school mascot? What’s your mother’s maiden name?

Oh, gosh, so many questions. Um, so I went to school in, uh, Richmond, Virginia, went to VCU. Okay. Um, and I went, got my degree in theater. I went for theater. Oh. So not… But, yeah, that’s a whole other story. Um- I mean, that, that definitely plays well to what you do today. It does. Yeah. It does now. It’s, uh… I feel like, if anything, it’s proof that I was not a good actor, that now I, like play myself.

Do you know what I mean? It’s like I wasn’t good at being anybody else- Yeah … so now it’s just that we gave up on that, and now I’m just, I’m Miranda, you know? Um, but anyway, I, uh, yeah, I went to school in Richmond. Uh, and I needed like a, a part-time job over the summer. My sister had been working at REI, I think, like, uh, seasonally the year before.

My sister’s two years older than me. We’re… I absolutely adore her. She’s, like one of the coolest people ever. And I just wanted to work with her. Um, and so I, like went into REI, and they were like, “Yeah, well, we like your sister, and you seem similar, so, like- … here’s a job as a cashier,” basically, was like the process.

If you didn’t grow up outdoorsy- Mm-hmm … what drew your sister to REI? My sister had a friend who worked at REI. So honestly, it’s all, it’s like very… What would that be? That’s not nepotism, but it’s something- … kinda like that, you know? Like- That was REI was just your friends and family. It was, yeah, exactly.

It was just, yeah. Just my friends and family. Um, yeah. No, Sophia was a little bit more, like athletic and outdoorsy than I was, and yeah, she had a friend who was there. Um, at that time, REI was still… Uh, well, I shouldn’t say was still, but REI… Well, no, I can say this. At that time, REI was still considered one of the best places to work, and so I think that, especially when you’re like a, a high schooler or going into college, it’s kind of the right age to, like be a cashier, so she got a job there.

And I just wanted to kinda hang out with her over the summer, honestly. Um, and I was sort of intrigued by the camping, hiking stuff. Um, and it’s not like we had never been outside. Like, my mom took my sister and I to Yellowstone National Park probably when I was like a ninth grader, and that was my first actual, like journey into the outdoors, and we ate the best oatmeal I’ve ever had in my entire life- Well-

every single day in Yellowstone. What made it so good? Um, probably the location. Okay. But they still have it. Every once in a while I’ll go on, like, Yellowstone Lodge websites and I’ll, like, look at the lodge menu, and they have this… They call it something like old, I don’t know, something like Ye Old Fashioned, like, Old Timey Oats or something like that.

You know what I’m talking about? I had this. Did you? I had this on the CDT. Did you really? Oh my God. With, like, the steel-cut oatmeal- When… Yes. Oh my God … and the, oh my- And they, and they drizzled, like, the maple syrup on top. Yes. So good. Wow, incredible. That’s so cool. I thought you were like, “We were backcountry camping- No, no

and it was Quaker Oats cold soaked. Best I’ve ever had.” Oh, no. The lodge, Yellowstone Lodge oatmeal- Yeah … is incredible. You two are connected by some weird frequency. First the not burp thing. Yeah. I know you don’t, I know you burp, but- Right … even knowing about her condition- Yeah. … and now this, you guys are definitely on some, tuned into some frequency that- Well, we went- Yeah

and it’s an all you can eat buffet at Yellowstone Lodge- Yep … for through hikers. Um, and you’re just trying to pack in calories. I hadn’t had fiber in 500 miles. And so I was like, “Oh, I’ll get the oatmeal,” and it was so good. It’s so delicious. Oh. It’s, yeah. I need to go back. It’s fantastic. Yeah, it makes me wanna go back too.

So yeah, we had, like, we hiked there and I’d been to Alaska at one point in time earlier and, like, done some hiking with my dad, but never backpacking and never, like… I don’t think I ever thought of hiking as, like, recreational, as something that was supposed to be fun. I just more, like, saw it as something that y- people just did if that was the only way to get to a viewpoint or something, you know what I mean?

So started working at REI. That was my, like, introduction into the outdoors. Um, I was a really bad cashier. I was just, like, not good at that job, and my boss at REI was like, the next summer she was like, “Is there anything else you wanna do in the store?” Like, besides just- Nice of them to not just fire you, be like- Oh, yeah

“Let’s find a different spot for you ’cause you’re not cut, you don’t know, you don’t math well.” Yeah, totally. Is that what it was? Or- No. It was more that I was, like, really chatty. Oh. And I would kind of, like, get distracted while I was ringing people up and I would, like, miss things or, like, ring things twice or, like…

I just was… I would, yeah, I was kind of distracted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. That sounds like me, so. Yeah. Uh, but then I, like, I was interested in working on the floor. I’d gotten really interested in… Uh, at that time, actually, I think GORE-TEX was, like, fascinating to me for some reason. I just thought it was such a bizarre technology that I knew nothing about.

Uh, and I had gotten into kinda hiking and stuff since I started working at REI. And from there it was like I just, I feel like I fell down the rabbit hole, you know? It was like suddenly all of this gear that existed in the world to me was all fascinating. I wanted to try every single activity. So I would, like, pick something up and be like, “What’s this for?”

And someone would be like, “Oh, that’s for, you know, whatever, filtering water in the backcountry.” And I’d be like, “What’s that? Where do you do that? Like, what’s that about?” You know. So within, like, a few weeks of working at REI as a cashier, I was fascinated by this stuff, and then when I started working on the floor, like working more with the gear, um, I just had access to so much knowledge with other employees.

Yeah. You know? People who had been backpacking and hiking and, like, you know, canoe camping for decades. Um, and I just was like a sponge. Like, I just wanted to learn everything from them, you know? What pushed you to take your first backpacking trip? Um, I won a backpack in an employee auction actually. Nice.

Uh, which was, like, something that they could do back then. At that time I, I had moved from this Bailey’s Crossroads store, which is where I started working in Virginia, down to the Richmond store ’cause I was going to school there, and I was working at that store. And they had, like, a, an auction of a couple of items that were, uh…

Or not an auction. I’m sorry, a raffle. That’s what it’s called. There was no payment involved. It was just little tickets you, like, dropped in. Uh, and the store was pretty small. There weren’t very many of us that… It wasn’t a very large staff that worked there. And, uh, they had, like, a few things that were from the garage sale.

You know- Mm-hmm … like the used items, and they were raffling them off to employees, and you got certain tickets based on, I think, like, different goals you hit or something like that. I can’t remember. Anyway, I told everybody, because I’m loud and I talk a lot, I was like, “I want the backpack.” Like, “I want this backpack to go backpacking,” and everyone in the store knew it, so I don’t think anybody else dropped their raffle tickets in-

for it. Like, everyone else had backpacks, you know? Uh, and so yeah, so I won this REI… It was the REI Flash 45, which was the very first of the Flash backpacking bags they released. I got that pack. Um, unbeknownst to me, it was too small for me. I was gonna say, 45 is small for your first pack. For sure. Yes, and also the frame was too small for me.

Oh, no. It was, like, an extra small, small women’s frame, and, like, I… That was not my size. And, uh, yeah. But I, like, got it, and the pack was small. Um, and I loaded it up with a bunch of stuff. I, I went on a trip with someone I was dating at the time. Um, actually bought them a tent as a means for us to go backpacking together.

Ooh, that’s romantic. Yeah, yeah, except And who got, who got to keep the tent? Oh, it kind of backfired. Um- Oh. I kept the tent, because after- … our first trip they were like, “You can keep the tent. I don’t ever wanna do that again.” They were like, “I never wanna do this.” The first trip was… I mean, as most backpackers’ first trips are, it was totally miserable.

Yeah, Murphy’s Law. And we… Yeah, right, exact- Yeah. It was just, like, absolutely awful. I was terrified the entire time. Um, but afterwards coming back, I was like, “I know people do this for fun, so it has to be fun, which means I must have done something wrong, so I wanna try and, like, do it again and do it better.”

Yeah. Um, and that’s- And what changed? Oh, g- I mean, since then, everything. Did you… I guess I’m thinking of my first backpacking trip, and I did- Yeah … everything wrong. Yeah. So maybe everything changed. I think kind of, yeah, everything changed. I think, I think it’s kinda hard to imagine myself back then, ’cause that was- 15 years ago, I think now.

Is that right? How old were you when you started at REI? I was 18 when I started at REI. I was 19 when I did my first backpacking trip, so now I’m 35, so 16 years ago- Damn Wow … my first backpacking trip. That’s a very unique and interesting origin story. I’ve never heard someone’s interest in the outdoors be spurred by, like, a retailer, a store itself.

Totally. Have you encountered anyone that has a similar story? I have, but honestly through REI, I think. Hmm. That’s mostly- I guess that makes sense … how it goes. Yeah. Uh, and largely that’s because, you know, I, it, it was a great place to work, and oftentimes the people who were, in my experience, obviously this is like take it with a grain of salt, but the people who were best at, like, selling gear and, like, outfitting people weren’t necessarily the best at customer service, you know?

Sure. You think about someone who’s… And that’s not always true, obviously, you know, but someone who’s like really, really into, say, footwear and knows exactly how to, like, outfit someone for a pair of boots, they’re maybe not gonna be the best person to handle, like, a customer service issue. Sure. You know?

They’ve got one, like, really distinct skill set. And so REI would often hire people who had a background or an experience in customer service or were, like, really people-facing as the folks who worked at the cash registers or in customer service, you know? So it was pretty, pretty common to have people who had maybe, like, some experience camping, some experience hiking, but they weren’t really, like, into extreme sports or even into backpacking- Mm-hmm

as, like, people who were cashiers. Yeah. So yeah, I would say I’ve encountered that for sure. But I don’t… I think that I kinda like took that and ran with it. I was, like, looking for an identity in some ways, you know, and just latched onto it. Um, so yeah. What were some of the most common questions people would come in and you would help them with?

Do you mean when I was like… ‘Cause I worked almost everywhere at REI by the time I left, ’cause I worked there for 12 years. Mm-hmm. Wow, yeah, is that right? 12 years. Yeah. It’s a long time. Um, I think that, uh, so the store that I worked at the longest was the New York City store. So I worked in SoHo, the SoHo store.

So I’m gonna answer based on that, if that’s okay. Perfect. Please. And the most common question that that store ever got is, “Where are your black North Face jackets?” So that was pretty much what we answered. Um, but, like, working on the floor I think and sort of selling gear, a lot of times people would come in, and they would have like a vague interest in doing something.

You know, they’d be like, “Oh, I wanna hike this trail,” you know, and oftentimes it was like just a day hike or, “Oh, I’m going hiking with friends,” or, “I wanna go camping with my kids,” something like that. And they’d be coming in and not really know where to start. And so so often I think what I was doing is helping people who would, like, come in kind of like eyes wide not knowing what the heck they were doing there just, like, start the process of acquiring gear- Yeah

even if that simply meant they’re acquiring knowledge to then go somewhere else to either, like, borrow or rent or, you know, get cheaper gear. Yeah. Yeah. Um- Katie, what year was your first backpacking trip? 2021. I feel like times have changed so much. When I first got into backpacking, like, I would say 80%, 90% of my gear came from me just going into an REI and asking someone with a green vest, like, “What the fuck do I need?”

Right. Uh, I ha- I was lucky. I had a former thru-hiker coaching me a little bit on the side, too, but, like, that first REI trip was so, uh, impactful to, like, the, my first AT gear. Yeah. Um, I think that it’s changed, like, the landscape. Like now- I think … people are getting their gear from you in a different way.

Yeah. And, like, that’s the way that people are learning about gear nowadays. Yeah. But it’s just interesting, like, how influential that inlet was to the world of the outdoors back in, like, early 2010s- Totally … and, and later. Yeah. I had done- Yeah … a camping trip, um, or I guess more of, like, a hut-to-hut hiking trip with family in 2017, and that was, we just went to REI and said, “Tell us what we need to get, and we’ll get it.”

Yeah. Um, and then for my first backpacking trip, which was also my first thru-hike, I l- went to REI fresh out of college and realized I couldn’t afford any of it, so it was… I actually went to the Trek. I was on every single Trek best budget tent, backpack- Yeah … whatever list, and then found it all on Facebook Marketplace.

You know we’re at PCT trail days when Jolly just slowly walks by in the front. Oh, no way. No way. Oh my gosh. Cool. Uh- Wear on my Jolly shirt. Yeah. Sidetracked here. Oh, man, I had a question. Do you recall a specific piece of advice that you gave while working at REI that was the most cringiest? ‘Cause I’m sure- Oh

like, you’ve learned so much, obviously, since you were giving people advice when you worked there. Do you, is there, like, one piece of advice that, like, really sticks with you, like, “I, I wish I didn’t say that out loud”? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Um, for a while, when I first started working at REI, someone else had told me that water filters were useless and that the only thing you should be carrying is, like, iodine tabs- Uh-huh

or chlorine tabs. Yeah. Um- Yuck … yeah. Yeah, so I did a little, a lot of that. I did a lot of recommending that to people, and then, ’cause I was using the same thing. You know what I mean? Um, and then, yeah, I got a water filter and realized how wrong I was. So that might be maybe the cringiest piece of advice.

Yeah. Um, I think I also gave a lot of, like, m- I, I think I give a lot of … I don’t know. I feel like that’s it. That would be the one that sticks out. Yeah. I also told a bunch of people that, like, they should definitely buy a Jetboil- Sure … having not owned a Jetboil myself- Yeah … and just, like, seeing them and being like, “That’s cool.”

And, um, I … Yeah, I still don’t own a Jetboil, so obviously. Was it difficult … ‘Cause I’m sure a lot of people come in and they want you to just tell them exactly what to get. Was it difficult to pick something to recommend when the answer is probably you should try a couple things and just see what works for you?

Um, that’s such a good question, but no, only ’cause I’m a highly opinionated person. I, I get that. I’m like- I feel you. I feel like yeah. I feel like I kind of … What I would always defer to is someone would be like, “What’s better, this or this?” And, and by the time I’d been working at REI for about four years, I feel like I had a, at least a good baseline understanding of stuff.

And while there are definitely situations where I probably should’ve been like, “I don’t know,” you know? But like, I thought I did know, I guess, the answer. Um, oftentimes I would be like, “This, this is the benefits of this. This is the benefits of that. But this is the thing that I use.” And so often that was, like, enough for- Mm-hmm

people to be like, “Well, that’s what I’m gonna get.” You know? Yeah. The more you’ve reviewed gear, have your opinions softened? Have you become less strongly opinionated about what’s best? I don’t think that I … That’s a great question, too. W- wow. Clearly I’ve done this before, huh? My ego is knocking- Um- … at the door.

Uh, I think, I think that w- what I, what I should say is that I was highly opinionated when someone was like, “What would you get?” You know? Like, “What is best for you?” I can absolutely tell people what I want, you know? And I’ve always been that way. But I, I don’t … I think that most often when someone would come into the store and they would wanna talk about, like, the difference between stuff, to me that’s very similar to what we still do now with YouTube, is like we- Mm-hmm

we discuss, you know, even myself and other YouTubers, we’ll, like, talk about the benefits of one thing and how those outweigh something else, you know? Um, so I don’t … I think that because of how I was sort of educated in the outdoors and because I kind of came to backpacking, um, by way of, like, tons of people giving me really different advice, I still abide by the reality of, like, this is my

Or by the idea that, like, this is my favorite stuff. This is, like, the stuff that I’m gonna use all the time, but that doesn’t mean that it’s best for you. And so I think that now as I’ve had more experience, I kinda, I, I feel even more strongly about that, where it’s like what is best gear for me is not gonna be the best gear for somebody else by a long shot.

Um, and that’s, like, the best thing that I can do is maybe help folks figure out what’s best for them based on them, like, self-identifying what type of hiker or backpacker or outdoorsy person they are. Uh, so yeah, I’m no less opinionated, but I think that I’ve always had that idea of, like, what is best is going to be very relative.

Do you have one gear quirk, oddity, usage case where you feel like you are strongly in the minority, but you, it really works for you? Ooh. Like, a piece of gear where you feel like, “I’m reluctant to give this as advice to other people, but, like, I love it so much that I’m gonna hold onto it”? Gosh, that’s, I don’t know actually if there’s something that I feel that way about.

I think that my gear changes a lot, you know? Um, just, like, small things kind of change a lot. But what I look for in my gear hasn’t really changed. So I don’t know about that. I would say that I really like color. I- Mm … I like buy all of my gear as, as bright of colors as I possibly can. Yeah. Like, if something comes in tie-dye rainbow, I’m definitely getting it in tie-dye rainbow.

Yeah. You know? And I don’t know that that’s the best piece of advice for everybody. Um, I think another thing would just be, like, how I eat and what I eat and on trail. Like, definitely the way that I have to fuel my body, um, is really different than how someone else might have to fuel their body. And so I’m pretty reluctant to give at least, like, specific advice about, like, “You have to use this thing,” because it’s just gonna really vary.

Yeah. You know? Uh, but even then it’s, you know, it’s like we can always share, like, systems, for example, to help people find what’s best for them. Yeah. Do you have a unique fueling strategy now that you mention that? Um, so I don’t know if it’s a unique fueling strategy, but I have a, a, a number of, like, health conditions, I guess, um, as I feel like a lot of people do.

But, uh, I have to be really wary of making sure that I eat enough food and that I get enough salt and that I- Mm … uh, just, like, get enough water. And so I’m often, like, choosing trails based on access to water and access to, uh, well, really water actually. Um, and, like, knowing sort of how challenging something is so that I can kind of monitor my food intake as well as, like, my hydration and my electrolyte intake.

Um, so that would be one thing there. I think maybe my, my current fueling strategy, I can give you that ’cause it changes all the time, right? But, like, my cur- current fueling strategy is that every, for every single day that I’m on trail, uh, I make sure to bring, uh, RecPak, which is… Am I allowed to- Mm-hmm

name a specific brand? Is that cool? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. Okay, great. Great. I- their chai- Oh my gosh … um, one is delicious. Yeah. It’s so good. It’s so good. I love it so much. Have you, are you familiar with RecPak? I’ve seen it. I’ve never tested it. They’ve offered to send a lot of product, and I’ve been reluctant.

Yeah. Not for any particular reason other than I just, I see their gear all the time. No, totally. That, that makes sense. Yeah. No, no, I get it, for sure. Yeah. It’s, uh, yeah, I kind of bought it when we did, like, a taste test review of a bunch of food. And, uh, Dan Becker, who’s like… I adore Dan Becker. He had tried it, and he was like, “This stuff sucks.”

So I was like, “Well, I have to try it now, obviously,” you know? And, uh, tried RecPak. It’s, like, a powdered, um, meal replacement. Yeah. You add water to it. It’s really high calorie. I’m not, like, this… Yeah, I’m not sponsored by RecPak. This is just, genuinely I love them. Yeah. Um, uh, you, uh, you add water. You shake it up.

You drink it. It’s, like, 700 calories in a packet, and it’s this bag, you know? Um, and for me, the reason it’s been so helpful is that I am really reluctant to stop to eat, but I will also, like… I am, I’m notorious for under packing food. I just have such a hard time packing enough food and, like, packing stuff I want to eat.

Yeah. I’ve always had that problem. So for me, RecPak is, like, a guarantee that I will have liquid calories- Mm … which are, you know, really easy to digest, really easy to fuel your body with, to drink on the go. Uh, and I’m, like, almost never going to under fuel because I’ve learned that, like, under fueling for me is a recipe kind of for disaster.

Mm. Um, so yeah, RecPak is my current fueling strategy. It’s like- Yeah … every day I’m on trail, I pack one RecPak- Yeah … just in case. And if you struggle to drink water- Mm-hmm … it forces you to take in water. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It’s really nice. It’s, it’s great, and I like the taste, so that’s a big benefit. Uh, you mentioned getting enough sodium.

Yeah. I saw that, uh, LMNT supports you as well. They support this podcast as well. Oh, sick. Love LMNT. Yeah. Uh, I’ve gotten hyponatremia on the AT, so I’m also a s- salt connoisseur. I’m- Yeah … as I imagine you are. Uh, w- was it day one on the Leuitt where, like, it dawned on me that I was open, I was on my, like, my fifth packet of LMNT for the day or something?

Yeah, Zach looks over at me and he goes, “How many packets of LMNT in a day are too many packets?” We were sweating our asses off. Yeah. But yeah, I think that was even extreme for me. But yes, I’m in the camp of, uh, more salt is better. Yeah. ‘Cause I’ve been on the other end of that extreme, and it doesn’t- Yeah

go well for me. Uh, gosh, there was something that you said there that I wanted to follow up on and now I’m blanking on it. Was it the health conditions? Uh, we could start there. You know, that, that’s, that’s- If it’s not your question, good to know. Don’t worry about it. We could definitely start there. Uh, yeah, w- if you’re open to sharing.

For sure. Yeah. Yes. Um, yeah, I talk about it a lot on, on the channel. I think… I, um, I have chronic migraines and I, a couple years ago, was sort of, like, tentatively diagnosed with POTS, which is, you have, have, I think you’ve- Yeah … had someone on the podcast before who had POTS too. Uh, yeah, Christine Reid. Yep.

Yes. Yeah, totally. Christine Reid, great man. She’s a great author. Yeah. Um, anyway, I, I was, like, diagnosed with POTS. And I say tentatively only because there’s, I, I hesitate sometimes ’cause I feel like I’m so on the border- Between like what is maybe considered, uh, really bad and what is like manageable, you know?

So I kinda hesitate even though I like was told I had POTS and then I went in again and they were like, “Well, now you’re not showing the symptoms of POTS, which doesn’t mean that you don’t have POTS.” It’s like, you know, a negative doesn’t negate a positive. Hmm. Anyway, all of that to say, basically the way to manage symptoms of POTS, which is like dizziness or passing out, uh, or you know, migraines, um, is get more salt and try to be on your feet for more time outside of time that you’re exercising with compression socks and things that can help like move blood through your body basically, so that you don’t have like episodes with blood pooling and with passing out.

So for me, salt is like a crucial thing, and the only way that I found out that I even had POTS was that I decided that I was just drinking too much LMNT. Yeah. And I was like, “I should probably cut this out of my diet just for… Unless I’m like working out and sweating, I should stop drinking-” Yeah … like a packet a day just kind of on its own.

Um, and I started to feel super, super unwell over the course of like a couple weeks and didn’t know what was going on, and then like just did all sorts of things to basically cut salt out of my diet. For some reason I like decided that was the, the, uh, villain. Um, and yeah. So that like led to the whole POTS thing, but um, I would say that like my- M- my, for me, it’s the chronic migraines, which I, I have known that I have since I was, like, 17- Mm-hmm

16 or 17. Um, I’m hypermobile. I’m, I have POTS, or at least I’ve had symptoms of POTS. Um- W- sorry, what is hypermobile? Hypermobile means that my joints are really flexible. Oh. Um, which is super common. There’s, like, a way you can test for it, but for, in my case, it means that I, uh, have, like, sprained a lot of ankles, subluxed a lot of joints.

Just, like, not dislocating, but, like, kinda popping it out, and it sorta goes back in on its own. Um, I’ve had a lot of weird, like, injuries, a lot of just sort of chronic joint pain. Interesting. Um, so overall I think when I talk about health conditions, this is an easier way to simplify it. It’s basically chronic pain for me, and, uh, dysautonomia, or, like, dizziness.

Hmm. Um, so yeah. Salt’s such a tricky one, man- Yeah … ’cause, yeah, I’m, I’m with you that, like, the more salt, the better. But someone with high blood pressure is, like, that’s a very bad thing. Oh, right. That’s a very bad piece of advice. So yeah. Yeah, for sure. You guys just gotta figure it out. Do you hike in compression socks?

I have. I don’t all the time. It kinda depends on, I think, the hike that I’m doing. Um, I, I’ve, I have found that I’m able to basically manage a lot of my symptoms, um, in the days, like, leading up to a big hike, and kind of on a day-to-day basis so that I don’t nec- as long as I’m diligent about, like, eating, drinking enough water, which is so easy to not do that.

And I’ve, like, had … I feel like every single time I go on a hike with someone new, I’m always, like, failing to follow my own cardinal rules, you know? Um, but yeah, I have hiked in compression socks before. I did a hike, uh, recently that I knew was gonna be super steep and really hard, and so I wore my compression socks for that.

What was the hike? Uh, it was Lake Constance- Mm … which is, um, it’s a, it’s considered the hardest, shortest hike in Olympic National Park. Mm-hmm. It’s only- Okay … two miles, or, like, 1.8 miles, but you gain over 3,000 feet of elevation- Oh … in the past, like, in the last, like, 1.2 miles, something like that. Um, a little rock scramble at the top.

It’s not as bad as … It was, I, I, like, psyched myself up for it more than was necessary. It was, it was okay. Okay. But it’s, it’s definitely hard, and I would not recommend anybody do it if they’re just, like, looking for a casual day hike. Um, but I knew it would be really steep. I knew it would be really exhausting.

I knew it would be hot. I knew I’d be sweating a lot, so yeah. Do you hike a lot in the Olympics? I do … Well, I haven’t, but I do now. Okay. That’s a weird, vague answer. I lived in Leavenworth, Washington for like- Yeah, sure … two and a half years. So when I was there, getting all the way from, you know, basically the Cascades to the Olympics was hard.

Yeah. Um, but now I live in the, like, Puget Sound area. Okay. So yes, I’ve done a lot of hiking in the Olympics. Yeah, it’s a haul from Leavenworth to the Olympics. It is. What is that, like, five or six hours? I’m just guessing. It would be at least, like, three and a half. Okay. Yeah. Or more. Um, yeah. Do you have a, like, most underrated hike in the Olympics?

I’ve never backpacked or done- Oh, really? … any, I did the one short day hike a very long time ago, but- Yeah … uh, I’m very interested by the Olympics. What, do you have, like, a most off the beaten path or maybe ones that don’t get as much love that deserves more attention? I, I wouldn’t say that there are… I think that a lot of the hikes that are considered popular in the Olympics are popular for a reason.

Yeah. You know? I would recommend going to those places. Um, I think that if you want to go further than where a lot of people go, you know, you can connect up a lot of trails that start, like, even in the national forest and go into the national park. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you can do really, really long miles, um, like getting into those areas.

Uh, but I would say that most of the popular hikes, like the Hoh River Trail, um, you know, the, the whole, like, Marmot Pass, Mount Townsend area, um, which is a really popular section of the park, it’s, like, popular for good reason, and it has the resources to support people hiking there in the park. Yeah. You know?

Um, so I don’t know if I would say that there’s, like, an off-the-beaten-path spot that I would recommend. I think in the Olympics it would be more, like, go try and find the route that you wanna create for yourself, because you can access it in so many different ways. Mm. So if you wanna do, like, I don’t know, 25 miles into Enchanted Valley, for example, you can, like, do that by starting somewhere else.

You might be hiking along, like, creek beds and valleys and stuff, but you’ll get that additional mileage. You might see something really awesome. Yeah. You know? Um, it’s kind of a non-answer, I’m sorry. No, I like it. I’m not, I’m not suggesting you’re holding out on Zach, but- Yeah. You can tell me. Have you ever not made a video about a place because you’re worried that sharing it with an audience as large as you have would fundamentally change the place itself?

Oh, my gosh, this is, this is a gatekeeping question. A little bit. Right? This is a geotagging gatekeeping question. It’s a little bit. Oh, my gosh, okay. It’s such a, such a hot topic. This is going to, I think, ruffle a lot of feathers. I love it. And I’m sorry to say this. Well, I’m not really sorry to say it. It is what I believe.

And, and I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m… I know I’m, like, caveating myself before I even say what my answer is, but I’m going to say this acknowledging that there are places where this is not true, for sure. But my belief is that if you are going to share something online, right, that, like, you’re gonna share a place, then you have to let people know where it is.

Co-sign. That’s what I believe. Co-sign. Yeah. It’s douchey to be like, “Look at this beautiful thing that I saw. Not for you.” Yeah, exactly. Like, it’s public lands. Go find it yourself. Right. Totally. It’s, it’s so unfair, and it’s like someone told you how to find that or a map told you how to find that, or y- I don’t know, you did some research on how to find that.

It’s not like you just want- Right … you know, you were definitely not the first person there, you know? And if you were, are you allowed to be there? Right. Like, that’s my question, you know? So that’s how I feel about that. There are places that I have, that have been shown to me by people that have explicitly said to me, “Please do not show this to other people,” you know?

Um, and those… I can think of, like, one spot in particular. Where? No, I’m kidding. All right, yeah. Here’s the location. Um, and so of course I’m not gonna share that online. I would never make a video about it. But I would, like, never share anything about it, do you know what I mean? I wouldn’t even share what park it’s in or what state it’s in or a photo of it or anything like that, because that’s something that’s been, that’s someone that I have, like, had an experience with- Or had like an interaction with has said, “Hey, I want to show this thing to you or this place to you as long as this is, we have this understanding,” you know?

Um, so yes, I think that there are, to answer your question, there are places That I can imagine going or places that I have seen where I do feel like, uh, I would not want to share any information about it, specifically if it’s been requested of me. Do you know what I mean? Like, if someone’s been like, “Don’t do this,” whether it’s a person who has access to the spot or, um, you know, like a- the forest service or someone being like, “Hey, this place can’t have any more access,” you know, like I’m definitely not gonna share it, uh, or put any information online about it.

But I do really firmly believe that if… Uh, like anytime I show something and I show a place, m- my belief is that I have to tell people where it is, you know? And that’s my, my responsibility, to not just glorify it and make it be like, “Oh, you have to go here, this is so beautiful,” you know, like sexy Instagram photo in like a lake.

And you don’t, what you don’t see off-camera is like, you know, hundreds of people waiting to take the same photo. But, like, to actually educate people on what to expect and how to get there. Yeah. Do you always, are you very intentional then in the- Agreed … education on obviously Leave No Trace principles- Yeah

but also any permits are needed, or how do you balance the knowledge that you might send a flood of people somewhere with- Yeah … making sure that they’re educated to recreate there in a way that doesn’t damage the place you’re sending them to? Oh, this, I love this. Man, I feel like I keep being like, “I love these questions,” but I do.

No, keep going. Keep going. It’s great. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think that this gets a little bit into, like a YouTube question, right? Which is, I mean, this is the question around making content on YouTube is how do you, how do you balance, or do you balance talking about a place or showing a beautiful place with educating people on how to recreate there, you know?

My firm belief is that, uh, the best service that I can offer to anyone on YouTube is gonna be entertainment first, you know? Like, the best thing that can possibly happen is someone’s like, “This is a fun video to watch. This seems like a cool person to watch do this thing.” And then, like, sneakily without them realizing it, they’re, like, learning about Leave No Trace, they’re learning about permits, they’re learning about-

like bear hangs, or not bear hangs ’cause I never do those, but like learning about bear canisters, you know? And learning about all of this. Sneaking some broccoli into the macaroni and cheese. There you go. There’s a great tip. I’m gonna do that next time. Yeah. Uh, yeah, exactly. They’re, like, learning these things as we go.

Learning about, uh, you know, h- the correct way to choose a campsite. And I- I think that I- I really do believe that the best thing that I can do to people is, uh, or do, like, for the outdoors, I guess, is educate people in a way where they don’t even l- like really realize they’re being educated. Do you know what I mean?

And how much intention does that take? Are you pre-scripting videos, or is that just you’re very good at having that naturally come out? Um, I would… I, I don’t kn- we definitely don’t pre-script. We don’t script anything. There’s not a single moment in our videos that is scripted except for maybe, like, the first sentence of a video, which is often Rainer, who’s my producer and, and now also my videographer, uh, Rainer and I, like, in the car chatting about it or talking about it ahead of time, or if I’m, like, pitching a video idea to him, you know?

And he’ll be like, “All right, well what’s the title? What’s the thumbnail? What’s the first sentence? Like, what’s the intro?” You know? Beyond that, nothing is scripted. There’s no, there’s no way we could script. It’s just whatever happens out there, you know? Um, I think it’s more just that I was, again, lucky enough to have a bunch of people teach me about the outdoors in kind of a similar way, you know, where it was very much…

Like, I had, I’ve had a ton of experience with hiking with people and backpacking with people who have varying levels of experience and have hiked in various places around the country and around the world. And so, like, seeing how they sort of talk about places, I think has helped me understand that as well.

Um, and I don’t think that you can really separate, I don’t think you can separate the two. Like, I don’t think that you can educate, I don’t think you can show someone the beauty of the outdoors without also talking about the importance of, like, conservation efforts and, uh, Leave No Trace and just, like, abiding by regulations.

Like, those places, these places don’t exist for anybody without that. So I feel like they’re so intertwined that in my opinion, there’s no way to do one without talking about the other. So I guess that’s, that’s how we do it. No, that, I think that’s great. Yeah. And I, I didn’t mean to gloss over the creation of your YouTube channel.

Oh my gosh, yeah. So you eventually left REI. Did you do that with the intent of starting your own YouTube channel? So, uh, y- by the time I left, yes. Um, but originally the channel started because, um, I was, like, working as a production assistant for a, a on-location photography team at REI. I had left the Soho store.

I had decided I wanted to work at REI headquarters. I had shipped myself across the country, like driven myself over there, elbowed my way into a part-time job at headquarters as a, uh, someone who worked in visual merchandising, so I like set stores up. Um- Sorry to interrupt. Did you move specifically, like w- edging your way into the company in mind?

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And is the headquarters in Leavenworth? It’s in Kent. Oh, okay. Well, it was in Kent, Washington. So no, Leavenworth was after, after I left REI. Um, no, it was in, in Kent, Washington. I’d been living in New York City. I was working as, in visual merchandising, which is like store setup, at the Soho store.

So I did a lot of our displays. I traveled to a bunch of different REIs around the country to help set up stores and decided that’s what I wanted to do with my life. And so I moved myself across the country and kinda like showed up on REI headquarters’ doorstep. So there wasn’t a job waiting for you there?

Oh, no. There was not a, there was not a job there for me. Wow. There was a, there was a, uh, a six… Was it six weeks or was it, maybe it was a little longer than that. They needed like a temporary, they needed like temporary help on a project, and they were going to, they had people that were interested in that job, or I guess they were like going to post that job, uh, from the stores in the area, in the Seattle area.

Um, there’s something that REI used to do called shared employee work, which is where like a store employee works at headquarters for like a few days a week, and they work at the stores for a few more days. So it’s just like a shared status. You’re not a headquarters employee. You’re still a store employee, but you’re doing work at headquarters.

Um, but I like found out that that job existed or that it was going to exist, and I just kind of was like, “Well, just give it to me.” You know? Like, “I’ll take it.” And uh, I did that. I worked, uh, at headquarters doing various jobs. Um, and there wasn’t… I wanted to work full time in, in visual merchandising, but I didn’t have really the skill set to do that, and I didn’t have the, the experience they were looking for.

So when a job did post and I wasn’t considered for it, like a full-time job, uh, I kinda started looking for other opportunities within REI. And there was a product- the production team, like the media team, shared a building with where we had this mock store where we’d like set up stores. Um, and there was a, a producer who worked in that little production pit named Buffy, who’s just like- I love Buffy.

If you, not that you’re watching this, but if you are, Buffy, I love Buffy. Um, and I kinda like walked in to the room one day and was like, “Hey, I have some free hours. I would love to do some work, you know?” And Buffy was like, “Great. What are your, what can you do?” You know? And then she kind of helped me, uh, uh, learn a little bit about producing, about production.

Um, so I worked as a PA. Uh, and then it was kind of like one thing led to another. They needed someone who was comfortable talking on camera to talk about a pair of climbing shoes for, like, a product page video. Hmm. So I- Did you climb? I did, yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm, yeah. I was really into rock climbing for a long time.

Um, so I, like, did that, and then I helped make these videos we called expert advice videos, which are basically, like… You know, it’s a- it’s- they’re- they still exist out there, but it’s like, “Whether you’re new to backpacking or you’re a seasoned hiker, this is the tent.” This is, like, how to choose a tent for whatever, whatever, you know?

Um, so they brought in, uh, Rainer, who is from… Well, he’s my best friend and my roommate right now, but, uh, he’s also my producer on the channel, and he, uh, is the videographer and the editor for the channel now. Um, but when I first met Rainer, he was a Hollywood producer who had worked at BuzzFeed, if you’re familiar with BuzzFeed.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he, like, worked as a branded producer for BuzzFeed, and he was, like, born and raised Seattleite, Pacific Northwest, had been living in LA, wanted to come back to Seattle, and REI had been trying to, like, make their YouTube channel… Like, they were trying to make more YouTube videos, basically.

Mm-hmm. And so Rainer applied for this job. He was hired, um, and he came in. And the story as I know it is that Rainer was hired to basically help make more entertainment-focused YouTube videos for REI, you know? Less of the, like, just product-based and more entertainment-based. Um, and, uh, he kind of saw, like, cutting room floor footage, my video that I had filmed- Mm

of me just, like, being a goof or something. I don’t know. I was, like, being whoever I am, and he was like, “You guys should probably try and see if this person wants to do any more videos.” You know? He, he could spot talent. Yeah, yeah, right. He was like, “This- she seems like she has, uh, an opinion,” um and, like, a personality, you know?

Um, and so, uh, Rainer and I met. Um, I was working as, a- again, a production assistant, so I was… It was just, like, a gofer job. Um, and Rainer and I got together, and he kind of, like, asked me if I were to make YouTube videos, like, for myself or for REI, what would I want to make and what did I see missing in the world of YouTube and, like, backpacking, um- And were you on the YouTube scene at this point?

Did you have an answer fleshed out? I… No. I mean, I was- I had been, like, making videos. I’d been helping make videos for REI, but they were all things that were, like, scripted by somebody else and they were all about, like, tips and stuff, you know? So it was like how to set up your tent or how to choose a backpack, stuff like that.

Um, and I would do that sort of when it was avail- like, when they needed it, you know? My, my job was working as a PA, or as a production coordinator at that time. Um- I guess I meant, were you consuming other creators on YouTube at the time- Oh … outdoor content? I was aware of a lot of creators, uh, at the time, for sure, and I had definitely, like, seen a lot of their videos.

Um- But I wasn’t, like, a connoisseur of YouTube, you know? I didn’t have anybody that I was, like, really following, I guess. Um, but yeah, but, but Rainer, like, when he was hired, that was his question to me, was like, “What do you think is missing kind of in the world of outdoor YouTube?” Um, and there were really only, at this point, I think maybe three, maybe like three or four people who were fairly well known.

Nice. Very subtle. Nobody noticed. Um, yeah, there were only I think, like, a couple outdoor creators. There’s a lot more now, you know, than there were back then, um, uh, like outdoor creators on YouTube. Uh, but yeah, that was how it started. Rainer and I had a conversation about what I kind of thought I wanted to exist in the world of, of content, and, uh, we filmed a couple of videos.

Um, we asked for forgiveness, not permission in terms of filming. Our manager at the time was like, “Ah, just go for it,” you know, “Make some stuff. Let’s see what happens.” Did you end up having to ask forgiveness, or were they fine with it? Well, so the, well, the pandemic hit, you know? And when COVID hit, really, media was one of the few things that was not affected.

Yeah. So, like, you could just consume media. And, uh, so REI was like, “What do we do?” You know? And that was when our manager was able to be like, “Well, I have these videos that we’ve filmed. Like, you wanna try these out?” Uh, so we started kind of slowly the process of publishing these videos under this Miranda in the Wild at the time was what it, the, the series was called.

Um, and they did a lot better than I think anybody really thought. So I don’t know. But I guess we didn’t have to ask for forgiveness. They were like, “Sure,” you know? REI was really great about, about it, uh, overall. Did they do better than you thought they would? Absolutely. Why do you think that is? Um, I think that partly, I cannot deny the fact that partly is that they were coming from REI, for sure.

You know, I think people were watching REI videos. They saw REI as an authority, and then we were able to kind of sneak in this, like, entertainment based, but still, like, with education channel that I think was sort of surprising to a lot of people. So I think that to some extent maybe that’s why they got more views at first.

Um- Otherwise, I don’t know. I think I had a, I had a lot of really great experts helping make those first videos. You know, Rainer has a, a lot of experience in making YouTube content. I mean, he worked with huge creators when he was, like, working for Buzzfeed. Um, I’m incredibly lucky to get to work with him now, and I’m, like- Mm

super aware of that. Uh, so he had a lot of experience. I think a lot of it was, was that, and then the folks that we had filming them and, um, editing them were just… We’re, we were and we are still all very close friends. So when you have that kind of camaraderie coming together on something, you know, like working together on a, on a product, so to speak, um, it’s…

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This deal is only good for a limited time, so do not wait. I have a million questions. I have to, I have to ask this before it escapes my brain- Yeah … ’cause I know it will, is just the, uh, cojones of you driving across the country and just kind of inserting yourself at the headquarters to, like, get some sort of amorphic role, has that manifested in other ways in your life prior to that point?

Like, that initiative to just be like, “This is the thing that I want. I’m gonna go fucking get it, doesn’t matter.” Um, yeah, I would say yeah, I think so. I’m a really ambitious person, and I’m also really impulsive, so like, I don’t really, um, think too much about the consequences of certain actions. If something is like, I want it, then I’m just gonna kinda go for it.

Um, I just- I love that. Yeah, thanks. It’s, I mean, it’s served me really well, you know? Sure. Uh, for sure. I learned recently that that is not just, like, a personality trait, that that’s apparently an ADHD trait. I, like, just learned that, um, which makes total sense. But, um, yeah, I, I, I think that that is very true to, like, who I am as a person, you know?

So yeah. Yeah, cool. I’m, I’m, I’m pretty risk-averse when it comes to, like, stuff that might harm my body, you know? Yeah. But, uh, as far as, like, big life decisions go, I’m like, “Well, what the heck, why not?” Like, what’s the worst that could happen, you know? Yeah. Can you think of an example of how that has manifested now that you’re doing your own channel?

Like, obviously everything you’re doing is very entrepreneurial, so you could argue that the entire thing is, but like, is there, like, a specific track or project or something that you’ve worked on where you feel like, “Fuck it, I’m just gonna go do this even though it might be a bad idea for X, Y, Z reasons”?

Oh, for sure. Some of them are things that I’ve done that have not panned out, and I’ve had to, like, learn the hard way that that was not the right choice. But I think- I, I beg you to elaborate. Um, I, I insisted that, that Rainer and I made a number of different moves around the country because I thought it was, like, a necessity for kind of like keeping things exciting in terms of making video content, and it was totally not, and it made our jobs a lot harder.

So that’s maybe, like, a, a, that’s more of, like, a persistent or a, a, I don’t know if it’s impulsivity or persistence. It was me being like, “We must do this thing, and I’ve decided that I wanna do it, and therefore we’re gonna do it,” you know? Uh, and not really caring about the consequences. Um, so that’s, like, a bad side of it, but I think that a really good thing would be, for sure, designing a water bottle.

Like, that’s absolutely… That, that instinct of just being like, “I’m gonna go for it. We’ll just see what happens,” for sure served me really, really well- Yeah … in designing the Migo. Katie’s a water bottle connoisseur. Yeah. We have a resident water bottle expert sitting on the couch. I got one thing- Love it

my bone to pick with you- Yeah … about this- Let’s hear it … is that I was tapped to write an article about the best smart water bottle replacements. Oh, yeah. Um, and the deadline on that to be published was, I think, maybe two weeks before you announced the Migo. I’m so sorry. I was so mad. I’m really, really sorry.

I saw your YouTube or your, your Instagram post. I think I audibly was like, “Goddammit,” like … You know what’s so funny is I think I read that article. And I was like, “All right, yeah, we’re okay.” Like, this is different enough, you know? ‘Cause none of them captured what I wanted, which was a smart water bottle with- Yeah

reusable plastic. Which- Which is, that’s what this is. There you go. That’s awesome. I was so mad about it. I’m really sorry, but- It was both yours and the Knog- Yeah … Thru bottle were both just weeks after that article went out. Totally. Well, I mean, that was like the year of the water bottle- It was … once that happened, you know?

The, the, the Thru bottle and then the Nobo bottle from Igneous as well. Yes. I mean, just a lot of really cool stuff came out. I was pretty psyched, like the w- the year of the water bottle’s an exciting thing to have happen, so. But yeah, for sure this was, was that. Yeah. Walk me through the process- Yeah … of creating this, like, yeah.

This thing right here? Um, yeah. So- Are you starting… Whose idea was it? ‘Cause I know you partnered with Mizuma- Yeah … Designs. Yes. Yeah. It was my idea. Mm-hmm. Um, it was my idea in like a fit of rage- … in Buckskin Gulch with Eric Hanson and Rayner. The three of us were backpacking together. We were filming a video where I was using gear that had been chosen for me by outdoor YouTubers.

This is relevant, I promise. Wide net, but I’m bringing it back. Uh, so I was using gear that was chosen for me by outdoor YouTubers, and Dan Becker had chosen my water system. And so he was like, “You have to use two smart water bottles,” and then a Sawyer filter and some other stuff, and he had other like gear I was supposed to be using.

Um, and I had been so vehemently opposed to smart water bottles. And using them on that hike, I was like, “Okay, I kinda get it,” but I was so fed up with the process of like filling them and filtering into them or out of them or all of this stuff. And in like this absolute frustration of like, “I just really want this thing to exist,” Eric was like, “You should just make it happen.”

And so I was like, “All right, well maybe, but I’ll just see if that’s something that brands are working on.” So I like filmed a little video on my phone and I posted it on Instagram, and tons of brands… Not, I shouldn’t say tons. There were a number of brands that were like, “We hear you,” like, “Cool idea,” or like, you know, “We’re, we’re working on something,” or like whatever.

These really vague responses, you know? Mm-hmm. That were just kind of like, “Thanks.” And then Willie from Mizuma, uh, who’s who we ended up partnering with- He sent me a message on Instagram. He was like, “Hey, we’re a really small brand, but we think this is a cool idea, and we think that we could make it happen.

So we’re, like, curious if you would want to do that. Like, if you have an idea already, if there’s something that you really want to exist, like, we’d love to hear your idea.” Um, and immediately, I was like, “Absolutely. I have drawings for you. I have, like, a spec sheet I can send you.” I was like, I had all this stuff.

Um, and it wasn’t until, like, after we had kinda started talking about it that I was like, “Ah, I should probably make sure that they’re not just gonna, like, take this idea and- Sure … run with it,” you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, which is maybe kinda where that impulsivity thing- Uh-huh … came in, you know? I was like, “This could’ve backfired.”

Um, but we just… We met, and we talked about it, and they were, like, so wonderful about essentially saying, “Hey, we, we trust you that this is something that should exist in, in the world, you know? And, like, we’re willing to basically invest in that as, like, a product. And if you will help us, essentially, market it or help us, like, you know, bring it to light, if you’ll be essentially, like, a, the core product tester on this thing, um, like, we’d love to do it.”

Hmm. So- How plugged in- Yeah … were you to prototyping and the monetary investment, or was it more of they licensed your image for marketing? I’m, I was 100% involved in the entire process. That’s awesome. I still am. Like, Willie from Mazama is here at PCT Days. I’m with him at the booth. Like, he and I have calls all the time.

He’ll, like, cold call FaceTime me. Uh, yeah, I’m, I was 100% involved in the process. They were so, uh, they were so good about the entire thing in terms of them being like, “We want to make the thing that you want, you know? Like, that’s… We trust that- There are, it seems that there are other people who are interested in that.

I think that’s what I should mention. It was, like, also on this Instagram post that I made. People were like, “Please, why does this not exist?” Mm. You know? And specifically I was like, “I want a wide mouth water bottle with a narrow mouth opening that attaches to a Sawyer water filter, and that is, like, relatively squeezable.

That’s what I’m looking for,” you know? Uh, and so many people came back and were like, “Yeah, we want that, too.” Um, but yeah, I was totally involved in the process. I, like, sent them my drawing with my ideal, um, stuff that I wanted to be included in the bottle. Uh, and then they, like, had a, a series of materials and other bottles that they sent my way to sort of review, and to have a look at, and see if I liked the feel of them.

Um, and Mizama is, like… Their parent company makes a ton of water filtration as well. You know, they’re like a small brand within a, a, a company that also, that, like, owns a factory, and owns, like, you know, a lot of tooling, and they can, like, help make stuff for a lot of other brands, you know? Um, and so talking to Willy, we, like, went back and forth kind of on, on specs of things and getting stuff exactly right about, you know, how, what features we wanted on the bottle.

Um, but yeah, I got, I mean, I got to be involved in the entire process. You know, I got the first sample. I got to take that on trail. I got to, to, yeah, see the whole process, and we’re still iterating, we’re still making adjustments and changes and accessories and, you know, part of the fun of being, like, a creator who’s in with a brand at this level is that it feels more like a collab than anything else, you know?

So if someone comes to me and says, “We want, you know, whatever XYZ accessory to exist,” I can just try it, you know? And there’s no risk for Mizama, and it’s like for me it’s just content, you know? Like, that’s all it is. Um, so yeah, I was very involved. I was such an early adopter. I think I was maybe a pre-order- Yeah

before even multiple colors came out. Oh my gosh. Um, now I’m mad that there’s a pink one. Um, but- Oh, yeah. Um, what has changed from this very, very first bottle? So the biggest- Well, that was- Yeah … released I’m sure to the public. Can I, can I squeeze your bottle? Please. Yeah. Just come squeeze my bottle. There you go.

Wow, I love that you still have your very first one. Uh, so two major things have changed, and you can probably see it compared to mine and yours actually if we were, like, stand them up side by side. Uh, one is that we found that when people poured boiling water into… ‘Cause you can put boiling water into the bottle.

Like, you’re able to do that. And when people would do that, they would then squeeze the bottle. And if it was sealed, and if it was squeezed like that, there was a possibility of deforming the top basically. You know? I did that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was, like, we didn’t want that. And it’s also really complicated to be like, “Okay, well, if you pour boiling water and you squeeze the bottle, and then it’s, you know, hot, and so the sides squeeze in or pressure adjusts and it stays like that, and then it cools, like, there’s a chance that…”

It’s a really complicated thing to explain. And there also was this whole thing where people just weren’t tightening the bottles enough. They weren’t… And I, I think that this is maybe, of course, the- there was, like, a leaking problem for people, and- I had that too … did you have it as well? And I, I know it’s user error- Yes

but I would unscrew, I guess, the wide mouth to collect- Yeah … and either not screw it on right, or when I would go to filter I would squeeze too close to the threading- That’s it, yep, yeah … and I would get dirty water in my clean water. Which sucks, right? So- It’s like that’s useless … yeah. Like, you don’t want that, you know?

Now I use it as my clean bottle. Totally. That makes sense, yeah. But we were like, “Okay, we don’t want that to be something that is a problem,” you know? And so rather than essentially saying to people, “No, you just have to tighten the bottle more,” which some people would be like, “We are,” you know, um, and it hit a point where people would be like, “The bottle’s leaking.”

We’d say, “Okay, send them back to us.” They would get sent back. We’d fill them with water. We’d tighten the lids. We’d squeeze them, and they wouldn’t leak, but then you still send someone a new bottle. You know what I mean? So it’s like, uh, there’s this, this sense of like, we wanna make sure that we are making, we are making this the best possible, like, user experience, you know?

And no one’s messing around with water filtration. I feel like even if it is user error, which I’m sure it is, I know personally I don’t wanna give myself the option- Mm-hmm … to have user error if the- Totally … consequence is I get giardia. Oh my gosh, completely, yeah. And also, like, it’s such a bad look to be like, oh, XYZ content creator…

Well, not XYZ. Miranda told me- … like, “Oh, I made this bottle,” and then it’s, like, leaking, you know? So one of the big changes that we made is that we made the, uh, the m- like wide mouth plastic here has a, a n- additional ring that is a lot stiffer. So now when you screw the cap on, it’s a lot easier to just get it tight.

Basically once you tighten until it stops moving, it’s tight enough, you know, and that’s gonna- Interesting … stay sealed. And that also, because of that stiffer ring, it doesn’t have any give at the lip there. Oh. So you can’t actually like push, push and squeeze that, which is a big one. Um, those are the two, two big changes.

And then also on some of the bottles there was a printing error. Yeah. And the measurements are off. Do you see that? I would never notice. Isn’t that so funny? Y- if you… Once you see it- Oh … you cannot unsee it. The 400- Yeah … is, and the- And, and like the gaps, the, the gaps between- Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That’s so funny.

Yeah. That’s gonna be a collector’s item. You got it on your hands there- … and it’ll be worth like- I would never notice Yeah, exactly … $10,000 on eBay in five years. Right. Yeah, this flawed bottle. You can see it’s a little, uh, bulged in at the side too up there. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So you know, they, yeah, they definitely got, got a little deformed.

This thing’s been through it. Yeah. Uh, so we corrected that. We corrected the printing area… er- error and we corrected the mouth, like the wide mouth. Um, those are kind of the two big things, and I think aside from that, um… Oh, the other thing is that we found that by correcting that, that wide mouth, if someone were to, like, put boiling water into the bottle and then seal it, and then, like- smash it basically, you know what I mean?

Like push it down, there’s a risk of it just, like, popping open because of the boiling water. Mm. And so we took away any kind of language that was like, “Seal it with boiling water,” you know? Like, because that’s just, that’s not a risk that I want anybody to run into, you know? Um, so it’s been a little bit of that too.

But mostly that’s, like, that isn’t something that we can really… A lot of that has to do with just the plastics, the fact that you have, like, a soft plastic and a hard plastic, you know? Mm-hmm. So you can’t really change that, unfortunately. What was a prototype at the very beginning before it was released to the public that you look back and think, “Oh, thank God that didn’t go out?”

Well, we were very lucky. Pretty much what we, what I drew up is exactly what we have now. Like, it’s basically identical. Um, yeah. Uh, so we didn’t really, like, prototype a ton that was different. But in the initial phase, we had a different sort of plastic that we were, like, kind of considering that is more like, um…

It’s, like, more see-through, but it has that, like, when you scratch it, it kind of immediately shows the scratches. Mm-hmm. Do you know, do you know what I’m saying? Mm-hmm. I don’t know if you know what I’m talking about. Mm-hmm. And it just, like, felt really cheap to me. Even though it wasn’t, it was actually… Yeah, it was I think probably about the same price.

Um, I didn’t like that at all, so I’m really glad we didn’t go for that. Um, but pretty much, yeah, what we, like, started with- Mm … is what we wound up with in a lot of ways. How much nerdy shit about plastics did you have to learn in the process of developing this? Um, yeah. That’s, yeah. Um, a lot more than I think I wanted to, or that I, like, intended to.

Um, but most of that is, like, unfortunately I think gone from my brain now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I’ve remembered a lot of it. I had to learn a lot of it. I had to understand the difference between, like, LDPE and HDPE and, um, which is, like, low density- And high density polyurethane. Thank you.

Yeah, I was about to be like, “I remember it,” and I didn’t. No, just the lo- low density, high density. Uh, so stuff like that I had to, like, learn. Um, but yeah, I think for the most part, it’s… I, I feel really grateful for the fact that, like, I made something and, like, put it out in the world with help from the folks from Mizama, and I feel pretty confident that, like, if someone likes it and it’s gonna work for them, awesome.

And if they don’t, then, like, it’s not for them, and that’s okay. Mm-hmm. And I, I feel especially confident in that now that there are, like, various alternatives to Smartwater bottles now, you know? Mm. ‘Cause it’s cool to be able to be like, “You do not have to use this. If you just want something much simpler or slightly different or whatever, like, there’s other options that are just as cool if that’s what you’re looking for.”

Yeah. Has becoming a product owner yourself changed the way you think about gear reviews? Good question. Well, yeah. That is a really good, good question. Um, I think, I think yes, it has. Um, for sure. I think that there’s- Too often I feel like it’s very easy for people to review a piece of gear based on, not just like content creators or reviewers or whatever, testers, uh, but just people in general, review it based on like what they intended to use it for versus like what it’s actually designed for, you know?

Um, so I think it, this has made me more aware of the fact that like that is not a problem of the product designers or of the brand. That’s a problem of like marketing the product, you know? Mm. Um, and so understanding that and being like, if someone doesn’t like something and they thought it was like for them, and so they’re reviewing it badly, that’s probably because I didn’t do enough to help market it correctly, you know?

Do you run into that a lot given that your reach is so large that, you know, anywhere from, like, thru-hikers to casual day, like, you reach a really wide breadth of people. Yeah. Uh, I assume trying to, like, market it to maybe who it’s specifically made for, I don’t know, I’m just trying to infer based on, I guess, the context clues that you’ve given us.

Is that a challenge? I don’t think so. I think, I think it’s, uh, not that it’s not a challenge, but I think it’s more, like, an attitude about it, you know? It’s like, if I came into every single room that I walked into and I was like, “You shouldn’t be using Nalgene. You have to be using Amigo,” like, that’s not gonna play well at all, you know?

Mm-hmm. Um, whereas if I’m like, “This is a thing that I think you might like, or if you wanna try it, go for it,” uh, that I think is more what it has to do with, is, like, an attitude. Um, I had a conversation with, uh, some of the guys from Zenbivy. Mm-hmm. You probably know Zenbivy. And they were ta- I’d never tried a Zenbivy before.

This was, like, before I… I now own one and, like, love it, but I’d never tried it, and I was kind of like, I was sort of being skeptical about Zenbivy to them, you know? I was like, “Is this really necessary? Like, do you need this thing? It’s a whole system or whatever.” Uh, and I can’t remember who I was talking to, but the person I was talking to was like, “Maybe not, but, like, if you feel, if you, you are, like, not sleeping well and you think it’ll serve you well, then, like, I think it’s worth a try,” right?

Like, if you, if there’s an option for something that’s gonna be best for you, isn’t that worth trying? Mm-hmm. And I, like, love that answer still to this day because i- it’s so true, you know? It’s like, if someone’s out there and they’re like, “I love my Smartwater bottles. I never wanna change a single thing about them,” like, there’s no reason to buy this, you know?

Yeah. But if someone is like me, being like, “I’m four days into a six-day hike, and I’m, like, hating this water bottle I’m using,” then, like, yeah, maybe, maybe try something different. Yeah. I had a conversation with a friend before starting the CDT in 2024- Yeah … where I, kind of the same thing you said, I’m like, “I hate my Smartwater bottle.

I hate how gross it is. I hate that it’s- Yeah … this type of plastic,” blah, blah, blah, “but I can’t find another bottle. All I want is to be able to fit two of them in the side pocket of my pack.” Yep. “I want it to fit a Sawyer, and I wanna be able to squeeze it. That’s it. That’s all I want.” Right, like, how hard is this?

How hard is it? And then I, there was nothing like that on the market at the time- Yeah … until 2025, year of the water bottle. Year of the water bottle. And now there’s, man, there’s some really, really cool stuff out there, so yeah. This is gonna be the most chaotic timeline of an interview. No, that’s not true.

This is how all of them go. I don’t know why I’m saying that. But, uh, I wanna go back to- Yeah … the, like, YouTube days- Yeah … to the transition to you doing your own thing. Yeah. Um, at what point did it go from, like, “I’m doing these, uh, kind of paint-within-the-lines product advice videos” to, “Now I’m doing more, like, personality, brand-driven stuff”?

When did the idea of starting your own thing start to seep into, uh, that story? With Rainer. With Rainer being hired at REI was when that happened for sure. Um, because he was hired, he was tasked with essentially making what they called, like, character-driven or personality-driven YouTube videos, or proposing an option for that.

Um, and he had seen stuff that I’d had done with REI that had been scripted by somebody else. He and I met and talked, and he was like, “What do you think is missing in the world of, you know, outdoor media?” Um, and I was like, “I just wish that more people on YouTube, like more backpackers, talked about like pooping outside and all the nasty stuff, and also like none of my hiking experiences look anything like the experiences that I’m seeing on YouTube at the time,” you know?

Um, and that- In what way? I think for me it was that, like, my experiences hiking and backpacking were generally, I don’t know, like four or five-day trips, you know? Or shorter, like overnights, where my friends and I were packing like a bag of spinach to hike in, you know, four miles and like stay at s- you know, on the coast.

Yeah. Like the Pacific Coast, and just kinda like hang out, you know? Or we were like base camping somewhere and doing like a shorter hike. We were bringing all sorts of stuff that was totally unnecessary but like made the trip more fun for us. And we were like constantly talking about just like the grossest things.

You know what I mean? It’s like there’s nothing that makes you closer than hiking with somebody, because if you’re like, “I am gonna like,” I don’t know, “poop my pants,” you can’t just be like, “Excuse me.” Like, I’m gonna, you know, you have to just like, there’s a, you have to, you know, you deal with that right away.

Yeah. And so those are the big things that I felt. I was like my, my experiences outside and hiking and backpacking were always like just full of like loud laughter and like talking and games and just like some of the most intimate you know, conversations with people, and I wasn’t really s- it- so much of what I saw made it feel to me like it was supposed to be, uh, you know, like lone man on the mountain, like howling wolf in the background.

Like, you know, I, I went to the woods to find myself, but, like, the woods found me or something. I don’t know. You know what I mean? Like, all that stuff. Yeah. You know, the one foot in front of the other, and that was just not my experience whatsoever. Um, and so I was like, “That’s what I wanna talk about.” And, uh, Rainer was like, “Okay, what do you…

Like, what videos would you make first?” And I was like, “I wanna make a video about menstruation, and, uh, I wanna make a video about trekking poles,” which is like- … I don’t know why those are my things. Uh, so we filmed those videos knowing that the intention was to publish them on REI’s YouTube channel under this title that we had workshopped a bunch of times, which was Miranda in the Wild.

And at the time we had originally, like, pitched it being Miranda Goes Outside, which is what my channel’s called now. But that was my Instagram handle, and REI was like, “Eh, let’s just do something different.” Um, so Rainer and I workshopped a bunch of different names and ideas, and, uh, we came up with one that our manager, like, absolute- she was like, “You definitely can’t call it that.

That’s a terrible name for a YouTube series.” And we were like, “All right, fine. We’ll do Miranda in the Wild.” And that was, like, what we settled on. Are you allowed to say what the terrible idea was? We wanted to call it Good Old Raisins and Peanuts. Just call it GORP. We were like, “This is a genius idea- … to just call it GORP,” and she was like, “Nobody’s gonna know what that is.

No one knows what GORP is.” What’s so funny about this is we’ve, like, held onto that for years, and now I, like, host a camp out, or I have hosted in the past these, like, two camp outs that are called GORP camps. We’ve just, like, held that and just, like, kept it alive, you know? Um, but yeah, so we published those under Miranda in the Wild.

Um, and when we published the very first video, before we put it live on YouTube, actually it might have been, like, before we even filmed it, Rainer sat me down, um, and again, tons of experience. I can’t, like, stress that enough. Rainer is just, like, a wealth of knowledge. He has so much experience with YouTube.

Um, he’d worked for BuzzFeed for, like, six or seven years, um, just in, like, YouTube stuff. And, uh, he… I guess it was more like four yea- I can’t remember. I don’t know. He’s, he knows a lot of stuff- Yeah … and, uh, it’s very clear. Anyway, before we even filmed the first video for REI, he sat me down and he was like, “The best case scenario with publishing these videos is that they do so well that eventually you leave REI and you keep making videos on your own.”

Mm. And I was like, “Oh, I don’t wanna do that. I, I would like to work at REI until the day I die,” you know? I was like, “I don’t intend to leave ever.” Um, and he was like, “Okay, well, we’ll cross that bridge if it ever comes. Just so you know, like, that is what we think of as success, is, like, getting to a place where you leave.”

And even when he was saying that, was his idea, “And, and I’ll follow you if that happens”? No, not at all. At that point in time I think Rainer, he was working on other stuff too with REI. He wasn’t only doing Miranda in the Wild at the time. He was just sort of telling me what his… ‘Cause he was, like, producing a bunch of things, you know?

Um, he was just sort of telling me what the, the best outcome was, you know? Um, and, uh, yeah, he had- So he had a vision for you even before you had a vision, at least for that- Yeah … specific. Yeah. I think he had an idea of what it meant to, like, see a creator start. Yeah. You know? He had an idea of what that kind of looked like.

Yeah. Um, and he wanted to prepare me for that. And over the course of us, now we’ve worked together for six years, which is bananas. Um, but over the course of us working together, I think he, he sort of continued to impart so much of that knowledge onto me. Um, even though a lot of his experience was working with people that had, like, millions of subscribers, and we were this, like, little tiny channel, you know?

Uh, he still, like, imparted all of that knowledge. Um, and so he wound up becoming a really key part of Miranda in the Wild. You know? Like, he and I were fast friends. We just got along great. We loved working together. Um, and so when the decision was made for, to leave REI, at that point in time there was, like, I couldn’t imagine doing this without him.

There was just no way. Um, and so yeah, he also left, and that was that. Yeah. Tell me about the come up. Like- Yeah … when did you go from, “I’m just creating these videos,” to, like, “People are recognizing me on the street,” I imagine? Oh, yeah. Um, yeah, gosh, when did that ha- start happening? I think, I think it started happening pretty early on because, uh, by the time, like, by the time the pandemic was sort of, not over, but, you know, things were opened up again, uh, we’d put out a lot of videos.

So by the time I could even, like, hike on trails again, that was while people were still, like, wearing masks and stuff- Yeah … we were hiking, you know? Uh, and so that would happen fairly frequently, um, that people would, like, recognize me. But it wasn’t so much like, “You’re Miranda,” which it still sometimes isn’t.

You know, people sometimes are like, “You’re that girl,” right? You know, like, people just, that’s like, that’s- That girl who goes outside. Right, yeah, exactly. I’m like, “Exactly right.” Um, so I think that started happening, uh, somewhat quickly. Um, the other thing is, like, we joke about this sometimes, but, like, I cannot go incognito.

Like, I look like this 100% of the time- … no matter what, you know? Yeah. Um, so, like, I wear baseball hats and my hair in braids, like, pretty much every single day. Yeah. So I sort of couldn’t, like, hide, so to speak, you know? It’s pretty identifiable- Put the braid across- Yeah … make a mustache. Like this. Yeah. Oh my God, we see that.

Whoa, we’re growing a goat. Oh, no. Uh, and then also because I worked for REI, oftentimes, and I’d worked at so many stores as well, oftentimes, like, the, the initial sort of recognition was going into REIs and, and knowing so many of the, the employees there. You know? Um, them knowing me, but, like, me knowing them.

Uh, and so I think by the time… Uh, gosh, I don’t even know by the time that started. Um, I think now, it’s weird to be in a spot now where there are, like, specific trails and times of day when I know if I go out there, like, I’ll run into someone- Yeah … who, like, k- knows me, you know? Or, or at least is like, says hi, you know?

Is there anything you miss about being unknown on trails?

Um, I th-, oh, yeah. Uh, that’s, wow, gosh, gosh, great question. I think the only thing I would say that the only thing that I Maybe miss is that, um, if, if I’m, like, with people who are not, who maybe don’t know the, like, regulations, or rules, or, or Leave No Trace, or whatever, um, I, like… I, I think I sometimes miss being able to basically be like, “You just have to do this because it’s right.”

Do you know what I mean? Like, you just, you should care about this because it’s right. And- Does it come across as, like, “You have to do this or I’m getting canceled”? I think, I think sometimes there, that’s the… I think more, it’s more like when I say it to people. Mm-hmm. It’s like the thing that will get someone…

And I don’t encounter this very often. I basically hike with the same people, and they all care just about, just as much about this stuff as I do. But, like, it can come across as, like, “Hey, if you’re not abiding by the rules and I’m asking you to do so, and you still choose not to do so, you’re putting my, like, livelihood at risk.”

I- if, if you are not convinced that, like, you shouldn’t do it because it’s bad for, like, nature, then, like, it feels kind of icky, I think, when that’s the thing that convinces people. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so I think, I don’t, I don’t love- Like, you care more about- I- … this one individual’s job than you do the landscape in front of us.

Yeah, right, where it’s like, I’m not telling you to do that because I’m trying to be like a stick in the mud. I’m telling you to do it because, like, you… We’re not special. You know what I mean? We don’t get, like, special privileges out here, um, just because, like, you’re with someone who hikes more or hikes, you know, for a living or whatever.

Um, but that’s kinda, like… I don’t know. That’s maybe a weird, vague answer that doesn’t… That’s, like, such a specific instance that I had recently, which is why I’m saying it. You know what I mean? It’s like you can tell it’s a targeted thing. Um, I think overall, there isn’t anything that I, that I miss, I would say, generally.

Mm. I really love meeting people in person. It’s like one of my all-time favorite things. I’m super extroverted, so when someone, like, says hello to me or just, like, stops to chat, it’s like, it totally makes my day, you know? Um, because the… It’s just… I don’t know. It’s very cool and, and so often I end up learning something from people.

And, uh, that’s just a… I feel like it’s such a, a privilege for me, you know, to be able to, like, have really cool interactions with folks off the bat. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I like it. Um, you described yourself previously… Uh, you said you dabbled and did everything, but, like- Yeah … you mentioned specifically that you like to do, like, four and five-day trips or maybe, like, going out to base camp and just hanging out there.

Yeah. I’m curious, from your perspective, what’s your read on thru-hikers? I, I mean, I think it’s really cool. I think that thru-hiking is awesome. I think that my perspective on it is that, and I think that a lot of thru-hikers would agree with this. Uh, I think my perspective on it is that, like, backpacking and thru-hiking are, they are different things, you know?

And I, uh, not in the sense of, you know, it’s like all whose-its or what’s-its but not all what’s-its or thingamabobs or whatever. You know what I’m talking about? It’s like all… If that that made any sense. Um, it’s like I get that, like, every thru-hiker is a backpacker. You know? Yeah. But, like, not every backpacker is a thru-hiker.

Yeah. I was actually just talking to a couple in the parking lot at PCT Days, and they were like, “Yeah, we’re thinking about doing the PCT. Like, have you done it?” And I said, “No,” and I asked if they were backpackers, and they were like, “No, no, we’ve never backpacked before,” but they, like, wanted to do the PCT.

And I think that is so common, right? It’s so common that people’s first- Folks who choose to thru hike, it’s like their first- Yeah Mm-hmm … backpacking trip, you know? Um, so I think it’s really cool. I think it’s- I, I, I like the idea that spending a night in the wilderness, like spending a night in the woods or multiple nights in the woods, there’s so many different ways in which you can do that and how you can choose to, like, experience it.

Um, and I think that thru hiking is one way, and I, I think it’s cool. Yeah. I feel like it’s similar to what you were saying with the water bottle and choosing what’s important to you- Yeah … where I think of the differences between backpacking trips I’ve been on and thru hikes where my priorities are just so, so different between the two.

Yeah. Where if I’m backpacking, I’ll carry the spinach. I’ll carry- Totally … a deck of cards. I’ll carry a bottle of wine. Like, I’ll carry- … so much heavy stuff just to make it more enjoyable. Yeah. Whereas thru hiking, it becomes so much, “Honestly, the way that will make this most enjoyable to me is to have the least weight on my pack and on my legs as I just move towards this goal.”

Totally. Totally, yeah. And I think from what I understand at least, ’cause I’m not a thru hiker. Like, I’ve not ever done the PCT or the AT. I have no intention of thru hiking at this point in time. Um, but you know, it’s like backpacking oftentimes we are thinking about the destination. You know, you are like, “Where am I trying to get to over the course of either one day or two days or three days or whatever?”

Um, but like so many thru hikers are, like it is really just the journey, you know? You’re like, I’m, uh, yes, I’m trying to get to the end, right? But there’s like so many ways in which, uh, and experiences that happen for something that’s that long. I feel like logistics- So, yeah … becomes so much easier. Yeah.

You don’t really have… You might have a timeframe loosely, but you don’t have your three days where your car is parked here- Right … and you have to get back, which means you have to do X number of miles a day. Oh my gosh. Oh. You can kinda just, if you’re having a bad day, you can just go 10 miles and it’s fine.

Which, like, sounds lovely. Uh, having been on trips where you’re like, “Okay, well, a storm is coming on day five and we have to get our car out of this parking lot because otherwise we won’t be able to move it, so, like, better rush,” you know? So. We have to. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, you mentioned that the things that you wanna talk about, like funny poop stories.

Uh, were there ever instances of subjects where, like, you wanted to make a video and REI’s like, “Yeah, we can’t be running poop stories on the REI channel”? N- no. Honestly, no. REI was so good about just being like, “Just go for it,” you know? Like, “Sure,” basically. Um, you know, of course, a- as with any company, we, we butted heads with other individuals, you know, but that’s normal.

That’s not the fault of, of anybody really. Um, but no, as far as, like, videos went, there wasn’t anything. There were things where, like- Well, like, I think at one point in time we wanted to do a lowest rated products from rei.com video- … and REI was like, “Uh, that’d be kinda tough to do because, like, the lowest rated product has, like, one review.”

You know? Yeah. It’s like, be, like, a tent and has one review, and the person’s like, “This tent sucked because it came two days late.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you’re like, “All right, that’s not… We can’t do that.” You know? Um, so more it was, like- … bad video idea than it was, like, you can’t do that, um, for sure. But I will say that w- I frequently still run into issues with Rainer that don’t have to do with something inappropriate, but I’ll be like, “I think this is a really great video idea,” and he’ll be like, “I…

Like, pitch me on it, but, like, I don’t see the vision.” Mm. And we’ll, uh, we’ll, like, go through that process, you know, of me trying to explain why something’s a good video idea, and almost always it’s like if you can’t explain it in two sentences, it’s probably not a good video idea. Sure. You know? So, yeah. Do you have examples?

Oh, gosh, like so many. I wanted to do this trip… I thought it’d be cool if we did a trip where we, like, went and found these, uh, medallions that are on trees somewhere in New Mexico. I was like, “We should go backpack to all these, like, medallions that are marking s- like, special trees.” Some part of some, like, soci- I don’t even really…

I can’t… Not really sure- … that much about it, you know? You’re like, “I can’t even actually explain it to you.” But I was like, yeah, no, totally. I was like, “I’ve heard that there are, like, medallions on special trees somewhere in New Mexico, and this seems like a cool thing to go hike to.” And it turned out that most of them were, like, roadside or, like, you know, half a mile in on a trail, and they were more just markers for, um, like, a senior society that had put together these things.

Um, so that was a great example of Rainer being like, “I love the enthusiasm, but, like, that’s not a video.” Mm. Has there ever been a video that has cleared both you and Rainer, made it out into the world, and didn’t do great? Oh, s- yeah. Oh my gosh, so many. We did a video where, uh… Well, we actually just put a video out recently talking about ticks.

Mm-hmm. And we were like, “This is so relevant. This is so important. Tick season is terrible.” This year especially. “We have to tell people.” Yeah, exactly. It’s awful. And we, like, thought it was a great video. And we were like, we’re just… You know, not, not that… There’s always stuff you can make better, you know, but we were like, “This is good.

This is, like, relevant. It has good information.” Just totally bombed. Mm. Like, nobody cares, you know? Which is fine, of course. It’s like, the audience is always right, you know? Also, like, ticks are something you don’t wanna think about before. You think about it after- Totally, yeah … when you have one and you’re mad, but you’re never, before a trail, getting hyped up and thinking, like, “Yeah, let’s learn about ticks.”

Right, yeah. That’s good. You just hope to not see ’em. Yeah, we should’ve asked you before we made it. Uh, but yeah. I say this ’cause I put out an article about ticks that didn’t do well. Oh, great. And that’s how I console myself. Oh, wow, we really are on a different wavelength here. Yeah, 100%. No one wants to read about it.

No, yeah. That makes- It makes them sad What were some of the key things that you learned about succeeding on YouTube from Rainer? Like, what was his perspective that allowed your personality to just shoot off like a rocket ship? Uh, yeah, I think the, the big thing that Rainer has taught me over YouTube is that, um, well, one, I think I just said this actually, but the audience is always right.

Mm. Like, if, if the audience doesn’t like a video or if they’re not watching a video, whether you think it’s the best video or not, doesn’t matter. They’re right. Yeah. You know? It’s… That’s, that’s, like, all there is to it. Um, it’s not the fault of an algorithm. It’s not the fault of anything else. It is just simply that it wasn’t the right video or it’s not the right packaging or not the right title or whatever, you know?

Mm-hmm. Um, so that’s a really big one. Uh, I think the other one is never, ever sacrificing authenticity and honesty for clicks. Mm. Um, we’re really intentional about being like, “There’s no… I’m not gonna do some clickbait title or some reason that someone’s gonna click on a video that then we’re not delivering on,” you know?

Um, I think that’s really important because the only thing you have to go on on YouTube is y- your audience trusting you, you know? Yeah. Uh, and so that’s, that’s a, a really big one as well. Um, and I think also understanding that with YouTube specifically, especially when we’re out in these beautiful places, the only way that we…

The only thing that we have to, and by we, I mean me and Rainer, you know, the only thing that we have to, to help bring the audience into whatever they’re watching is, you know, rather than a, a multitude of senses, you basically have two, you know? Mm. You have, like, seeing it and, uh, like, being described it or hearing it, you know, hearing the sounds of water, hearing the sounds of birds, whatever, hearing me explain what it is that you’re seeing.

Uh, and so having to really- Bring people into that, you know, and understanding that it, it is so much about saying like, “Let me invite you into what I’m seeing here.” Mm. Um, so that it isn’t… So that you don’t feel like you’re not in the know. Do you know what I mean? Sure. We don’t want someone to watch and be like, “I missed something there.”

Even if it’s subconscious, even if you’re like, “I don’t really know what’s going on,” you know? Uh, yeah, it’s just like helping people understand and orient themselves that way. I love that. That’s brilliant. Yeah. And not intuitive, at least not for me. Yeah. Oh, the other thing is talking to the, always like talking to the camera as if it’s like a person that you want to share the experience with.

Uh-huh. You know, that is such a… And that’s like how, before I ever made YouTube videos for REI or anyone else, I would like film my hikes on my phone, like my solo trips, to like share them with my mom. And it was not so much that I was like, “I want to share this with my mom.” I mean, I did, but it was also like, I would get scared and I would get nervous.

And so like talking to a camera is like a really nice way, or a phone, is like a nice way to, to feel like you have a, a purpose out there. And there’s a piece of that that is like, I’m doing this knowing that when I’m back in service I’ll send it, which means I’m making it back in service, which means, you know, it’s like a sense of, of safety I think.

Um, and suffering out loud is like one of the best ways, I think, to process thoughts and emotions and feelings. Yeah. And so you do that when you talk to a camera. Um, and so we just kinda carried that into YouTube, you know? Mm-hmm. It’s like still sometimes when I’m talking to a camera, I’m like thinking to myself, like I’m imagining my sister or my mom or my best friend Pam watching it, and like what I’d want them to understand or see in the moment.

Mm. Do you know off the top of your head what your most viral video has been? Definitely yes. It is, the most viral video we put out is, uh, I worked for REI for 12 years, here’s, like, the products you should buy- Mm-hmm … or here’s the stuff that is good. Mm-hmm. Which is now kind of irrelevant, because that was, like, four, three or four years ago now, but yeah.

Was that while you still worked at REI, or was that after you left? Right after I left, yeah. It’s good publicity for them. Yeah. Yeah, I mean- … in some ways it was not, ’cause we had some opinions about what you shouldn’t buy- Oh, interesting. Mm … you know, as well. But, uh, but yeah. I mean, definitely. I think it was, it was, uh, um, yeah, probably good for REI as well.

What shouldn’t you buy? Uh, I think at the time in the video I said that REI’s sleeping bags and sleeping pads were not particularly good. Okay. I’m pretty sure that was what I said. Uh, and that some of their, like, ultra-light tents at the time were just not very… They just weren’t very good, and that was not really the fault of the designers so much as just, you know, a big brand like REI cannot innovate it, cannot innovate in the ways that brands like, you know, Durston can, for example, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s like Dan Durston just, if he’s… I mean, small brands are the powerhouse of innovation in the outdoors, 100%. Yeah. Anytime someone says the name Dan Durston, I feel like I’m a sleeper agent that’s been activated. I love that man. Yeah. Tell him I say hi. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, so, so that’s, that’s part of that with a big brand like REI, is like they just can’t…

It’s a big ship to turn, you know? Mm-hmm. Whereas, like, smaller boats, smaller ships can be a lot more nimble, you know? And I feel like it’s such a niche community that actually wants something smaller, lighter, smaller, lighter, smaller, lighter. There’s probably a ton of people who want a slightly larger, heavier tent to have a good time on their one-night backpacking trip.

Yeah. You know, you’re right. Yes. Except, I do think that the, so much of what we see in ultra-light gear from small brands makes its way into REI eventually, or big stores eventually, you know? Everyone has an Alpha now coming out. REI just, yeah- Yeah … released an Alpha hoodie, you know? I looked at the weight of it, I was like, “This is really heavy,” you know?

But, like, still, they’re still doing it, you know? Or, like, trekking pole tents. They had a trekking pole tent that got released. Um, you know, it does eventually happen, but it’s, it’s brands like FarPoint, you know, but in case of Alpha, uh, like pushing it forward. And it really, it, it takes those brands having success before big brands are willing to invest in the process of designing something.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. You’ve said a lot of our buzzwords here. Talked about Durston, FarPoint. Uh, what are some pieces of gear that you’re especially loving on right now, aside from the water bottle, obviously? Also, question about the water bottle. Yeah. M!GO. Yeah. Miranda Goes Outside? Is that the name? Correct.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. The… Yeah, so it, it’s M, exclamation mark, G-O. On the bottle it just says M-G-O, ’cause that’s Miranda Goes Outside. M-G-O’s how we abbreviate the channel. Mm. Um, so yeah. But the reason it’s an exclamation mark and not an I is that there was, like, some iffiness on another- Like, I think, um, well, now what is it called?

I don’t know. There was some, like, reason that we were worried about naming it Migos. Like copyright. Copyright, thank you. That was the word. Uh, but since it, that no longer, I think, matters, but we just stuck with the, the enthusiasm of the exclamation mark, like, matches- Migos … my personality pretty well, so yeah.

Yes, Migos. Isn’t Migos a rapper also? Oh. Am I hip? Are you hip? Oh, don’t say hip. I’m not hip. That’s for sure. I just unced myself real bad. That’s true.

Don’t say you unced yourself. I’m so cracked. This is crazy. Oh my God. Old, old Maxing. I’ve been doing- You have hit none of the buzzwords. Oh, did you old man Maxing? Amazing. Um- Just got age mogged. I’ve been learning a lot on this trip. We’ll just leave it at that. That’s- We taught him about unk this weekend during- Wow

I guess, I don’t know what day it is. Uh, 100… It’s been a long time. No, four days? I don’t know. 100. Wow. I don’t know. We’ve lost track of time. We taught him about unk on Tuesday- Yeah … I think. He’s been using it a lot. Are you, like, writing in your journal about this? I’m trying to… I might say- You’re, like, making notes.

You’re like, “Dear diary, this is what unk means.” I’m, I’m trying to ruin it for everybody. I think if I use it out of context enough times, it’ll just die. He’s been using it quasi-correctly. Oh. Yeah. Which is almost worse. So now the goal this weekend is use it wrong as much as possible. Is that correct? I wanted to drop a bomb on the zeitgeist is what I’m after right here.

He’s going, he’s going straight unk. Straight unk. Okay. Um, favorite pieces of gear. Favorite pieces of gear. Uh, yes. I’m going to use this opportunity to say that I deeply love Light AF packs, like deeply- Yes … deeply obsessed with Light AF packs. I, ugh- Well, if you said your favorite thing is a lot of color- Yeah

man, they can punch that ticket. They really can. They totally can. But, but I got my Light AF pack, I mean, not just that, not just the color, obviously that’s a huge factor, but I got my Light AF pack in, like, 2023 and I’ve used it on basically every single trip that I’ve taken, unless I’m, like, testing something different.

Yeah. Do you use the framed or the unframed? I have the framed pack. I have the EcoPak 46- Okay … Curve. So I carry a bigger pack these days in the winter as well. The same size pack as the first one that you got in the raffle way back in the day, right? That’s right. One liter. That’s right, yeah. Full circle.

45, yeah, yeah. Full circle raffle. I think other than the first pack I got on Facebook Marketplace- Yeah … didn’t do great for me, and then I won a Light AF pack in an Instagram raffle. Did you really? Um, and it was way too big for me. Oh, that sucks. Um, but even too big, I still use that thing. It’s awesome.

It’s, yeah, the, I love that pack. It’s so comfortable, and as someone who, like, my body, if something’s not comfortable, I’m, like, having a really bad time. Yeah, for sure. So, like, having chronic pain, generally speaking, that’s part of the problem. Um, and man, that Light AF pack just rules, so I love that bag so much.

It has been through the wringer. I just recently patched the first hole in it. It had a little teeny, tiny hole, and I was like, “Eh, I can probably not patch this.” It didn’t change for, like, months and months and months, and finally I was like, “I should probably just do something about this.” Yeah. So. You might have just said it.

What was the pattern you have on yours? I actually don’t know the name of my pattern, the pattern on my pack is. It’s a rainbow pattern, obviously. Okay. Uh, but, uh, I, the, I will, full disclosure, the pack was sent to me by Light AF, so it wasn’t, I didn’t, like, seek out Light AF packs. I knew of them, but I didn’t, like, seek this bag out.

But, uh- I imagine at your size you probably don’t pay for anything, or certainly don’t have to. I don’t have to. Yeah. I, I do try to buy- Okay … a lot of, a lot of stuff. Okay. Like, I just dropped, gosh, probably, like, $2,000 on gear for a video that we’re doing- Oh, nice … in the future. Uh, and the way that we do it is we, like, well, ’cause I get a lot of gear to test as well.

Yeah. It’s very true, but, uh, Rainer and I try and, like, use the gear, and then if it’s not gonna be something that’s, like, in my core kit, just, you know, the gear, stuff that I use over and over and over again, we hang on to it for a little while and then, uh, we auction all of it off and then donate the proceeds.

Oh, cool. So it just gives us a way to, like- Test stuff- Yeah … but then also be able to, you know, give back. That was hoarding it all in the closet. Yeah. Yeah, there’s no point. I mean, yeah, it, it would suck to have, like, a backpack I’ve used once- Yeah … that could be used by somebody else. Yeah. You know? So… I have s- I started this last year, and I wanna keep doing it, ’cause I had a similar thing.

I looked in my gear closet. Yeah. I recently moved from Colorado to Pennsylvania- Oh … which I wouldn’t recommend. But, um- I’m from the East Coast, I get it. I l- looked at my bags of gear- Yeah … and I thought, “This is crazy. I’m not using a bunch of it.” So put out the bat call for through hikers that- That’s cool

didn’t have gear to start a trail. So I had a ton of my gear this year go out on long distance trails. I love that. And then I’m hoping… I said, “Please send it back,” but I’m also… I mean, I know what a through hike does to it. Yeah. If it’s ruined, it’s ruined. But I’m hoping if I get some of that back, I can just move that into next year as well.

That’s cool. And keep that going. I love that. I hope somebody that through-hiked the AT with one of your packs sends it back to you and you have to figure out what to do with a pa- a pack that’s been sweat through for- Oh, yeah … six to eight months. Well, I intentionally… I only had one- You can test it … extra quilt.

I don’t… For some reason I just don’t have- Yeah … quilts. Um, and that, that one I, I told her, “Just keep it.” I don’t- You don’t want that stinky- Yeah … I don’t, I don’t want the quilt back. Swated-in quilt back. Yeah. Yeah. If, because it was the AT too. I’m like, “If you’re taking my quilt on the AT, please don’t send it back.”

My sister, or my family came out to visit me after I finished the AT, and my sister s- literally sprayed me down with Febreze- … before she could, like, be near me. I, like, yeah, you don’t want someone who just hiked the AT- Yeah … to give you their gear back. That makes sense. Dan gave me, I think, two days in Watertown after the CDT of being really nice to me, and then he looked at me and he’s like, “Katie, you’ve gotta throw that shirt away.”

Yeah, yeah. “You’ve washed it twice.” Yeah. “It’s not gonna stop smelling like that.” Oh, that’s funny. Yeah. “It’s gotta go in the trash.” Yeah. I think Light AF would be my… That’s my, probably be one of my packs. I love that pack. Yeah. It’s great. Wait, can I tell my story around how light I got that Light AF pack?

Please. Please. Because it was… Sorry, this is a really fast story here. It’s just they’re a cool brand. But, um, because I, like, love rainbows so much, Light AF, like, posted a photo of a new pattern on Instagram, and, like, dozens of people sent me the- … picture of the pack. And they were like, “You have to get this pack.”

Yep. And so I was like, you know what? I could use a new pack. And so I, like, m- you know, was getting ready to basically buy one, and Light AF reached out and they were like, “Do you need any help figuring out the pack stuff?” You know, and so we kinda, like, chatted about, about bags and stuff. And, uh, and that was how I got my, my Light AF pack.

Mm-hmm. So it’s been, been well loved for sure. But they were like, “We don’t really know who you are, but everyone keeps tagging you in this post- Yeah … so we’re assuming that this is something you want.” You know? Um- Yeah. Is it the liquid neon curvy, very colorful one? You… Yes. Come find- But the funny thing is The one where they posted the announcement of the, uh, pattern was a giveaway.

Oh. And that’s the one I won. Really? So I think we might have the same- Do we have the same backpack? … pattern, yeah. Wow. Well, come find me at some point here and, and take a look at it. I’d love that. I brought it with me, so it’s so good. It’s so great, but it’s so comfortable, too. Um, yeah, Light IF, I’m, I’m big on Light IF.

I also love Nemo. I’m like a total stan for Nemo. Um- Is that your tent and pad? My sleeping… Well, my whole sleep system is now Zenbivy. Mm-hmm. I was a convert. Um, so I’m like, uh, in that cult now. You’re like, “Oh, was it… Did you really need it?” Yeah, seriously. Yes. I know. Even in the video we made, like, where I tested it for the first time, I was like, “You don’t, you don’t need this.

You definitely don’t need this, everybody, but, like, if you’re not sleeping well, you might need this,” you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, Zenbivy. So Nemo’s my tent. Mm. My, the, the Hornet. I love that tent. is Exotic Packs on your- No … register at all. Ooh. I haven’t heard of them … they do really fun custom stuff. Dude.

Jonathan Patrick Thomas out of Chama, New Mexico. Yeah. Fully customized. Wow. It’s the running vest strap harness- Okay … style. Um, but very similar to Light AF in the amount- Mm-hmm … of color customization and funky patterns and- That’s so cool … he put shrimp in the pocket linings of all of my- That’s amazing

stuff, ’cause I thought it’d be funny to just be like- Hilarious … I have shrimp in my pockets. That’s so good. That’s great. I- that’s actually really smart. I love it. Uh, yeah. I’m guessing they’ll be at PCT Trail Days, so definitely- Oh, sick … check ’em out if you get a chance. Cool. Yeah. They’re not a sponsor or anything, I just really like their stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s awesome. And- Yeah … and again, not sponsored, just wanna plug them, and Tumalon Outfitters. Oh. They operate out of a, um, big shipping container in Chama, New Mexico. Oh. And the things they do for CDC thru-hikers, they’re incredible. I swear, they just take their van and drive up and down the main road- Mm

looking for people to give rides to. Wow. They drop beers off. It’s right at the Colorado-New Mexican border, so they go and drop beers off there so you can celebrate. Great guys. Wow. Great stuff. Cool. That’s rad. Big plug. I did just buy an Arc Haul 50 from Zpacks- Uh-huh … because it’s the lightest framed pack I think that exists.

That, I believe that’s correct. Sounds right. Um, so I’m excited to try that. Yeah. I was like, this is several ounces lighter than my bag. This is crazy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, cool. Is there anything else in particular that you would really like to touch on? And we’re getting close to party time here. I mean, it technically is party time.

Oh my gosh, party time. Yeah. Anytime’s party time. Yeah. I think that if we’re close to party time, I probably don’t have anything else- Cool … to say. I think we’ve talked about so much. We’ve talked about a lot. You know? This has been quite the journey, a very fun journey. But we do have to wrap with the sponsor question.

This is the peak performance question presented by Topo Athletic. Use code TREK15HIKE, all one word, at topoathletic.com for 15% off your order. Do you have a top performance-enhancing or backpacking hack? I know we kinda talked about nutrition in the beginning. Yeah. So if you wanna just double down on that, that’s totally cool, but if there’s something that we haven’t talked about, the floor is yours.

Uh, no, I’d double down on the nu- nutrition thing. Yeah. Absolutely pack enough calories. Never ever under pack your calories. You burn so many more calories than you realize when you’re hiking. Pack enough food. Besides the Rec Pack, what’s your go-to snack? Like, I’m not getting sick of this, this is my go-to, I’m always gonna enjoy this?

Tinned fish. Tinned fish? Yes. 100% of the time. 100% of the time. Fucking love tinned fish. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All tinned fish, or…? I’m, I’m really partial to anchovies and sardines. Okay. Um, sardines are, like, having a moment right now, which I love, because I’ve been, like, a longtime lover of sardines, and I feel like- Everyone else is, like, coming up to it now, you know?

I’m like, “Ah, yes. Sweet.” Um, so yeah, sardines and anchovies. Anchovies in a, uh, like pita bread or a tortilla, especially like a thick tortilla- Ooh, I love that … with a little bit of, like, tomato sauce in there. Yeah. Ooh. Really good. Okay, I have a follow-up ’cause I love tinned fish- Yeah … in my day-to-day. How do you deal with…

It’s, I just, it’s the grossest trash. How do you pack out the oily fish tin- Yeah … without it making your whole pack smell like oily fish? You just throw it in the woods. What are you talking about? Oh, God. Oh, I- Yeah, obviously. If you’re talking in the woods. Yeah, put it in the water, actually. That’s better.

Try littering. Try littering? Uh, um- I smear it on people’s tents and wait for the bears. There you go. Yeah, exactly. Uh, that’s so funny. Um, yeah, I… If I’m gone for more than like four days, I’m probably not bringing tinned fish. I’m probably bringing, like, fish in foil packets, you know, which is way less gross to pack.

Uh, but no, I will generally put it into, like, one of those sort of more durable plastic bags- Mm-hmm … if I’m eating it for lunch, and then as soon as I finish my meal in the evening, it’s going in that Ziploc bag and just getting sealed- Okay … with everything else, you know? Um, but yeah. I also, like, drink the…

You know, like leftover juice, like leftover soup. Yeah. That’s like, I’ll just do that with the tinned fish, so yeah. Love that. It’s good stuff. It’s the Migo water bottle. Let people know where they should go to get your stuff, follow you online, sleep at your house, everything. Sleep at my house? There’s no room for you there, I’m sorry.

Yeah, I noticed you never answered her question earlier, mother’s maiden name. Oh, yeah. Last four of the soc- House or street that you grew up on. These are standard podcast questions, by the way. Oh, yeah. I’m sorry, my bad. I should answer all the personal stuff. Yeah, do you want my credit card number now or later as well?

Oh, yeah. We’ve got it. We already have it. Don’t worry. Okay, great. Katie’s been pickpocketing me. Uh, yeah, so you can find me on YouTube at Miranda Goes Outside and on Instagram as well. Um, and our website is mirandagoesoutside.com. You can buy the Migo and the Mini Migo, which I realize we didn’t talk about at all, but you can buy the Migo and the Mini Migo.

Tell us about the Mini. The Mini is a 700-milliliter version of- Oh, so it fits in the- It does, yes … what’s it called? Boob harness stuff. I’m pretty sure it’s not called a boob harness. But it fits in, like, the should- the shoulder strap. Shoulder. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um- I like boob harness better. And actually, like, I use that bottle as, like, my daily now.

Mm-hmm. Uh, it comes with a little, uh, ice catch in it, mostly because Willie from Mizama is, like, a gym bro, and so he wanted something he could, like, shake his protein powder with, which I think is very funny. Uh, but yeah, so the Mini Migo is a 700, just a smaller version of the Migo, otherwise identical, just smaller.

Um, you can buy the Migo and the Mini Migo on Mizama’s website, and you can also buy it at Garage Grown Gear. Um, and then there are a bunch of local small retailers that carry it as well, so check your, check your local gear stores to see if you can find it. If you’re in Seattle, you can go to Feathered Friends.

They have it. Nice. I love Feathered Friends. I have- They have good, good bags … some quilts. I wanna get one of theirs. Ooh, yeah. Uh, we’ve got one at the Seattle raffle, so if you’re lucky. No, you technically can’t win, unfortunately. I can’t enter? Aw. Can, can Dan win? Yeah. He better not win, ’cause then we’re gonna be in a lot of trouble.

But, uh, Miranda, you are awesome. Thank you so much for joining us here on Backpacker Radio. Thanks so much for having me. This was really fun. Yay. We didn’t get an air your. A what? An air your- Your little, your little burp gate? Oh, oh. Wow. I know more about your body than you do. Sweet. I need, I need to, had to drink this a lot faster to get a- Yeah, we’re, we’re not ending this until you give us a fake burp.

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All right. I’m now realizing I forgot to wrap a bonus segment, so we’ll just plug in one of the recent Trail News episodes that we did as the bonus segment. We’ll- Okay. Oh, and you have to do an onX-sponsored question too. Oh, we’re gonna do that. Excellent. Okay. Yeah. Uh, well, no. The Triple Crown is sponsored by onX.

We’ll get to that in a second, but yeah, today’s bonus segment is, uh, the most recent Trail News episode we did on the Triple Crown survey stats. Oh. I talked about it briefly on the Trek Propaganda on a previous episode, but it was great to get Katie’s perspective because she’s the one that poured through the data.

We went way deeper, so that’ll be a good one. Definitely wanna check that out. Uh, but the Trek Propaganda today is… It is gear I use as a professional gear tester. It is written by Katie Jackson, of course. Effort- Um . And it breaks down all of the gear that I bring with me when I’m not testing new things, so all of the things that typically I have in my pack.

Spoiler alert, a lot of it boils down to, um, it doesn’t matter that much, just I bring whatever I feel comfortable in in the moment, but I break down my big four, including, no surprise, the Durston Xmid Pro 1. Or not Pro 1, the Durston Xmid… Oh yeah, Pro 1. Um, the non-freestanding trekking pole, Durston tent. My sleeping pad, the Nemo Tensor Elite, and my quilt, the Hammock Gear Burrow.

And also, open call to give me backpack recommendations because I have always been using the Symbiosis Gear Aspen, but I have recently been told that I need a hip belt because of some back problems. So, I am in the market for a good backpack idea, maybe from one of you, maybe from one of you two. Um- I got ideas

yeah. Read, read the article and then send your thoughts my way. What’s the backpack at the s- that is at the top of your bucket list that you don’t currently possess? ‘Cause you’ve got a nice lineup. I do. You have a fat lineup of packs. Some have said. Um- They have? That’s a nice fat lineup you got up there.

My fiance says that we have a whole room in our house dedicated to my backpacks. Um, the Durston- Talking about- … Wapta. Wapta. Is that what Jess used on the AT? I think it is. Yeah. Oh, is it? She, I feel like the Kaakwa is the more popular one. It’s the- Which one did she use? She used the Wapta. Okay. I do. I do.

Yeah. Yeah. But the Wapta’s the smaller one, like the 30 liter something, um, Durston pack. It’s frameless but with a hip belt. Mm. And- Her did have a hip belt, for sure … as I feel like I now say too often, I trust that man with my life, so- … I, I wanna give it a try. Yeah. I am second-guessing myself on if it was the Kaakwa now.

No, I think it was definitely Kaakwa, but- Okay. It, it felt good to say. I wasn’t gonna say anything. She told me yesterday it was the Kaakwa. You both burned me. Ah. No, I liked- Next … your confidence there. Uh, I guess as a quick aside, I wanna update my sun hoodie review series. That could’ve been the bonus segment, but we just did a…

Well, this’ll be a future episode, so I won’t go too deep into it. But, uh, we did the Lewit Trail, 31 mile- backpacking trip would have been an awesome opportunity to test a new sun hoodie, and I didn’t. Instead, I just used the one that I like the best that I’ve tested already, which is The North Face Summit Series Direct Sun Hoodie, I believe is the full title.

Uh, yeah, for being out for that long, I didn’t wanna take any chances with testing something that I didn’t like. That’d be a bad time, and this one just reconfirmed that I fucking love this sun hoodie. So, if you wanna hear more about that, go to whatever episode that was. Couldn’t handle 28 and three-quarter hours in a shirt that you didn’t positively love?

I’m a little softy. These testing stints happen over, like, a four or five-hour hike. That’s enough for me to determine if I like it or not, so- You were having a tough day, too. That would’ve been… If you- Yeah … were dealing with everything you were dealing with and then had an uncomfortable sun hoodie, I think- It would have broke me

I think you- That would have been the straw that broke- You would have quit … the XAML’s back. Yeah. Uh, I tried it. It didn’t work. It was so bad it was funny, but thank you for the pity laughter. XAML. The laughter wasn’t pity laugh.

I’m laughing at you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That counts, too. Uh, but yes, I just wanna double down on my love of that sun hoodie. I’m gonna update the rating to, I’m gonna give it a Since this is the leader of the clubhouse, I feel like I have to give it something lofty. I’m gonna go 9.1 And so you already p- rated this earlier, and it was your first or second one you ever- It was literally the first one.

Yeah, yeah. And, um, I didn’t wanna go too high with it because I thought for sure- So what’d you give it? I think at the time I gave it, like, an 8.1, maybe even slightly lower than that. So maybe do, does everything need to be reworn and re-rated now, or what? I won’t- Now do you have a full scope? I am gonna r- I’m gonna re-update, or I’m gonna update the rankings on these because, yeah, now that I’ve got some more context on what I like and what I don’t like, I feel like I’ve got a better perspective on these.

Um- Are these to be, like, is this an ongoing thing that you’re rating things? Yeah. This is just completely subjective what I like. But it’s like somebody can go and find these things that you have, like- They’ll have to go back and listen to the podcast. Uh, I will make an article out of this to make sense for people that listen, ’cause- When?

I’m al- I’m almost even thinking of, like, do you remem- I mean, it might still be a website, but, like, there was a time… Does Gear Lab- Yeah, Gear Lab … Outdoor Gear Lab still exist? Gear Lab is fucking awesome. I mean, uh, are we gonna have the Z Lab? The… Yeah. You mean the Zamels Lab? The Zamels Lab? Zamels Lab?

When is the last time you wrote and- Wrote an article … published an article? Yeah. Uh, it might’ve been my hike of the, uh, Lost Creek Wilderness loop e- eight years ago, something along those lines. Well, you’re gonna be in Trek Propaganda. We did that together. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think this… You might have something there, man.

Do you remember getting in a fight talking about, uh, God, it was something about, like, how linear distance was different if you were climbing. We were talking about, like, the hypotenuse of a triangle, basically. But what was the- Right, around- Who was arguing what? I don’t remember. I just remember fighting about it.

I do remember fighting. But- I think ultimately you were right, which pains me to say. Yeah. Uh, by the way, me being right is my favorite thing- … in the world. Ask anyone who knows me. It’s probably insufferable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, as you can tell, we are slapstick happy here ’cause we’ve been spending the previous week gallivanting through the Pacific Northwest.

Uh, and seeing as such, we’re gonna do a Pacific Northwest trip question of the day, which is, what is your personal best and worst from this trip thus far? To give some context, we are now at the Monday. We got here last Monday. We’re… No, Sunday is today, rather. We’re about to go to the soccer game. Uh, so we’ve been at this for a week.

We did the hike. We’ve done PCT trail days. We’ve got a soccer game oc- upcoming, and we’ve got the meetup tomorrow, and a bunch of Seattle shit as well. Uh, but I would like to hear everyone’s best and worst of the trip thus far. Ladies first. All right, I’ll start with the best. It’s so cliche. I will steal it.

It was meeting all the hikers, meeting all the people that came by the booth. I was a prisoner behind the booth, uh, most of the, most of the weekend. Um, so I wasn’t getting to walk around and get to see a lot of the festival, but it did mean that I got to see everyone that came up and said hi. And I was talking to Jess about this too, especially when most of my interactions with hikers this year has been from behind a screen where people tend to be a little bit, little bit more inflammatory, a little bit more mean.

It’s really fun to get to see people face-to-face, realize that everyone’s actually very kind. I had a ton of really awesome interactions. Um, good to see this year’s class. I wrote down another thing, too, that was my favorite. I’m trying to remember what it was. Um, oh yeah, getting to see Blaze Physio in person.

Yeah. Finally having my first appoint- in-person appointment with Blaze. I feel like that was… She’s a wealth of knowledge. Yeah. We need to get Blaze back on the pod. Blaze, if you’re listening or if somebody knows Blaze that is listening, tell her to come back on the pod. I want her to be my roommate or something.

Yeah, can you please live with Katie and then come on the podcast? Yeah. Uh, should we do the bests and then the worst? Let’s do that. Is that the plan? Okay. Go ahead. So, you already did your worst, I… Or you just did your best. Yes. Yeah. Just the best. Okay. The worst was seeing Blaze Physio. Yeah. Right, right, right.

Well, I heard two, and I was just like- … “Well, it’s just the two. There was one and the other.” All right, so, um, my best I mean, you know, it’s, it’s few and far between these days that I have been finding myself on, uh, on new terrain- Yeah … on like, on a new trail. And, and it’s- Wow … low-hanging fruit. Zach, excuse me.

Uh, it’s low-hanging fruit that, like- Smells like cake … uh, uh, so we got to hike the Loowit Trail, and it’s … And, you know, it goes around Mount St. Helens. Mount St. Helens has a really unique history. It’s the most active volcano in the lower 48. It was exploding while we were there. It was exploding while we were walking.

It almost nearly killed Katie. Uh, she was terrified at all times- … due to the smoke rising. She crinked her neck ’cause she could not look away from the crater as she was walking. Yeah. Smoke plumes billowing out. And, and just to give you the, paint you a little bit of a picture, it truly w- looked like there was smoke coming out of the- Yeah

crater the entire time we were hiking around it. And, and we didn’t know why it was doing that. Katie- Katie held onto it for a very long time. Oh, uh, like, it was served, like- … too long, for sure. Like, to the point where I’m like, “Is this girl an idiot?” Like, she… Like, it’s not smoking. All right? This is my first time hanging out with Katie, more or less.

I just thought you guys hated fun. I just- I thought you were smarter than you were. And apparently you’re not. But, um, so- 100 books? What were they all, Waldos? And I never found him. Oh, my God. So, so we, we later did run into a couple volunteers that… And I was like, I was like, “Is that moisture or is that…”

Like, ’cause I, it was like, I theorized that it was dust and, and, and I wasn’t even sure it was, but yeah, the, the, the mountain is decaying at all times throughout the day. And when it’s really windy, the du- the volcanic dust and ash and pu- pumice debris just, like, floats in the air and it looks like smoke.

Yeah. You could s- hear all the rockfall too, especially when we were on that, um- Well, I am way off track- … plateau area … right now at this point, by the way. So we’re, like, talking about the hike at this point. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Um, so I don’t wanna go too far down the r-… The point is, I was on new trail- Yeah

like, for the first time, and I just really appreciate that. I appreciate being in a new place. And I walked, uh, through Washington a handful of times at this point, and seen Mount St. Helens from afar from Mount Adams, I guess even from M- uh, Mount Hood, from Mount Rainier, from Goat Rocks. Like, you can see it for a while, and it was just really cool to finally get, get your feet on it.

And, um, and it packed a punch depending on, you know, how quickly you’re trying to do it. Yeah. And we kind of probably tried to do it a little faster than we would’ve liked, ultimately. Yeah. I mean, we were washed. We’re super unk at this point. We’re unk. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll, and I’ll get into my worst- Oh, my God

and it happens to be- Nope. You gotta hold onto it … a long- Okay … I, I’m, wait, that’s what I’m saying. Yeah, yeah. I’ll get into that after you- Yeah Um, yeah, that was a little hors d’oeuvre for the Lewitt episode that we will do forthcoming. But my personal best is, uh, Katie, I hate you ’cause you took mine, but I guess I’m gonna go- Ah

kind of the same answer, but different. The Trek blogger meetup. That was cool. That was so fun. That was cool. Uh, so we had an Airbnb pretty close to the tent area at Trail Days, and, uh, invited the Trek bloggers, couple correspondents, Morgan, our vlogger, uh, to come hang out, and that was cool. We had frozen pizzas.

We had a couple of drinks. I don’t know. What I can say? Uh, I, I literally only had a couple drinks. No, I’m saying, I don’t think I can say alcohol drinks? I can say that. Everyone was 21. Why not? I don’t know. Not a ton of beer. It was just of the, the root- Yeah, it was- … variety. Nobody got lit. It was fine. Yeah.

Uh, but yeah, it was, uh, I mean, like, it’s so rewarding for me. But, kinda what you were saying is, like, it, it can become impersonal operating all this from behind a screen. Like, it’s easy to forget, like, how much you love the hiking community, and, like, especially the Trek bloggers. Uh, I know it sounds like I’m just pumping up our people- Well, it’s impact-

which I am … you’re, you’re impacting people, and they’re turning out to your, like, you know, the, your place. Like, you’re having a party, and then these are the people that you’re helping to support be out there. Yeah. You know? I mean, like, it’s just, yeah, it’s so cool to finally be able to meet the people that are the faces on the screen on the website or the voices on the podcast or the face on YouTube.

So, uh, yeah, that was just a ton of fun. Hung out and- It’s infectious to see hikers be excited about what they’re doing. 100%, yeah. I would say a bonus best is, like, the people we don’t see all year long who are also part of the, this side of the industry of it. Sure. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s great to see Travis- Yep

Sawyer- Yep … and Jolly, you know. Like, it’s great to, it, like, it was a lot of fun going out to having a late dinner the other night with that gang. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it was great to, to s- ’cause I don’t get to see everybody all year every year. Shout out Caroline from Gossamer Gear, Joe from FarPoint. I miss you guys already.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, the outdoor industry is just the best. I’ve been in other industries. I’m sure you guys have as well, and there’s just something very special. But, like, nobody’s in this to get filthy fucking rich. Like, people do it because they love the outdoors. Definitely of like minds, and yeah, everyone is just- It’s- Not everyone

Sawyer’s not even- The vast majority of everyone is really cool … Sawyer’s literally not even making a dime b- at, th- they’re not even selling. They… Yeah, that’s true. They’re just, they’re just cleaning people’s filters all day long. Yeah, and the money that they do make, they donate 90% of it. They j- yeah, right.

And the other 10% goes to Travis’s yacht, so- That’s a joke. Yep. But it is a funny one. He doesn’t have a yacht. But if he did, it’s still in Michigan. All right, Katie, your worst. My worst was on the hike, um, I was testing the new Durston freestanding X-Dome Pro 1+. Lot of words, and I was very excited for it.

I’ve actually used the tent before several nights. I already had the review sort of written up in my head. I just needed to get pictures of it. Um, and- I’m trying to think of a picture you could’ve gotten with that out there. Yeah. It would’ve looked like a, like a gumdrop. I have some screenshots from the video you can use.

Yeah. It was so bad. Looks like a UFO. Yeah, seriously. And Dan Durston, we had, we had been emailing back and forth about, you know, some of the specs about the tent, some ideas, and he had explicitly said, because he is a man of detail, “Make sure you bring stakes. It is a freestanding tent. It does not require stakes, any stakes to set up, but you might want stakes.”

I think he even said, “Especially if it is windy.” Um, and I’ve… I’m stupid apparently. And I didn’t wanna deal with bringing stakes in a carry-on bag, uh, on an airplane. I’ve sometimes had issues where TSA gives me some trouble, so I thought, “It’s not a big deal. I’ll just set it up, get my pictures.” I’ve slept in it with stakes.

I know it works. I know how it operates. Um, we get to our campsite, and it is maybe the windiest night I’ve ever spent outdoors. It took me- Literally Windy Pass. Yeah, it was- Yeah, the name of the place we hiked over, like, instantaneously before we set up camp was Windy Pass, and it held true to its name.

Yeah. Abs- abs name. And like, I had Jolly look up the weather for that night, and he said sustained winds of 30, gusts of 40. I believe it. That feels right. A lot. That feels right. Yeah. To, to try to sleep in, we all were setting up our tents. It took us about- 30 plus minutes Yes … each of us, and I, yeah, it was both Most of that was me holding onto the tent so that I could try to get the, um, tent poles in there, and it would blow away.

It would come up off the ground. Jaba looks over and goes, y- y- you’re trying to be so nice. I think- Oh, no. Yeah … you think that I’m an idiot. You’re like, “You know, someti- I did. I did think you were an idiot in that moment. You go, “Sometimes, you know, it’s helpful to put a stake in before you try doing all that.”

And I looked back at you and said, “Dude, if I had brought stakes in.” If only, you said verbatim, “If only…” Oh, no, you go, “Oh, if only I had brought stakes.” Like, ex- that exact delivery. I- I, I was like, “What?” I ended up just getting in the tent so that it wouldn’t blow away, but it then sort of clam-shelled around my body- It was a sad looking tent

in the night. It was a s- uh, and w- well, not for lack of, you know, Dan cre- obviously created a good tent. Great tent. It’s a good tent. But the w- The wind- Every time I looked over at you- … the tent was in a completely different configuration. Like, faced a different way. Like, blown up onto a hill. Like, like, I was like, “This thing’s gonna get torn the fuck up.”

I was so worried I was gonna break this thing before I got pictures. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I would have to grovel and tell them I broke his tent and didn’t even get the review up. But, um, my watch the next day said that I got, I looked, 57 minutes of sleep. And b- and to give you context to that 57 minutes of sleep, what, the next night, I think you got 12 hours and eight minutes of sleep?

Yeah. Okay? Yeah. I caught up. So it averages out to be pretty equivalent. Not that I’m looking at her watch all day. I caught up. Mm-hmm. Um, and the 57 minutes of sleep, Jaba woke up at 5:00 PM, yelled if we wanted to hike. None of us slept well. 5:00 AM, 5:00 AM. Is that what I s- oh, yeah. 5:00 AM. 5:00 AM. Yeah. None of us had slept well.

Pre, pre-dawn. Th- there was this, uh, there was a, a, um, a possibility of rain on, on this day, and we weren’t sure if that was supposed to be, like, rain first thing in the morning, rain overnight. Um, and I was like, “Oh, gosh, if,” uh, you know, like, “I’ll get up at 5:00, and if there’s, like, any threatening clouds, we’re gonna pack the fuck up and get the hell outta here.”

Yeah. And, and so I, I got up at 5:00, uh, and I said I was like, “Katie?” And you were awake. I, of course I was awake. You were awake. I told you, “Jaba, I haven’t fallen asleep yet.” Yeah, and I was like… I didn’t even wa- I, I didn’t even wanna actually, like, think about how that was real, ’cause I, I wanted you to, I wanted to believe that you were embellishing, that you actually got some.

But apparently you didn’t. Um, and then I even, like, I said, I hollered to Zach, like, uh, you were, uh, you were snoring so loud that- … nobody could even get through to you. And I said, “Okay, well we’re gonna, we’re gonna sleep in, and then we’ll try and, we’ll try and hike by 7:00.” Yeah. And I got- And then- … 57 minutes of sleep between 5:00 AM and 6:00 AM Yeah.

Yeah, and then you packed all your shit up and just crossed your fingers hoping that we’d wake up. Well, eventually I was just laying in my tent listening to it flap. I just wanted, I wanted out. Yeah. You wanted out of the flap zone. Out of the flap zone. Yeah. Yeah. You’ll get- So that was my worst moment.

Yeah. Yeah. You’ll get a much further rundown on that for the Luit episode. It- we also will have a video going out through the Trek’s YouTube for that, or the Trek on Trail. We’ll figure that out. But- Yeah, Zach took a video of us trying to get our tents up. Yeah. And I have a time lapse of it. We’ve got footage of everything.

Oh, it was so bad. It was fun. My worst, uh, uh, it would have been, um, I hadn’t hiked since, like, the Arizona trail essentially be- And we did, you know, a, a big stretch, uh, day one with a bunch of climbing and descending. I hadn’t… I had been, I had been biking. I biked about 600 miles a couple weeks before coming out here.

Um, but I got really sick after that bike ride, and I did zero a- athletic anything. Zero a- any training whatsoever. So, I hadn’t, like, hiked downhill with a pack on since, like, spring essentially, and it was… Like, my legs are still sore, so that was really annoying and painful. But really, what ended up being my worst was we…

I got locked into doing some content for the trek at, um, at Trail Days, PCB Days, and, um, the, the concept was, uh, let Jaba roast your trail name. Yeah. And in concept, without really thinking about, you know, practical application of it, it sounded great. Like, “Let’s do this. It’ll be hilarious.” But when, like, the rubber had to meet the road, I didn’t have it in me to burn people hard.

And- Well, you didn’t have the ability to not burn people hard. Well, yeah. Right. That was- Right. That’s correct. Well, you didn’t, you didn’t, but then it was almost just awkward. We had one person come up to do it, and he said his trail name, and you just went, like, “Ah.” Uh, okay. Here- … here’s how. Here- it… Honestly, it was a little defeating in a lot of ways.

But basically, my, like, baseline of where my brain goes when I wanna, like, s- like, burn someone or roast them is, like, overly fucked up. Yeah. And I didn’t have a rapid way of, like, adjusting off of that to something that was a little more, you know, less hurt- Bringing it back down to a six … less hurtful or more, like, p- PC or, like, whatever.

Anything that would’ve been more, like, digestible on social media, like, without me maybe being an asshole or something like that. Yeah, yeah. So, I didn’t feel comfortable doing it ultimately. Yeah. And you- And- … you said that, too. At one point you looked at me and you were like- I was like, “This isn’t gonna fly.”

Yeah. You said if one person genuinely has their feelings hurt, I don’t… It, it’s just not worth it. It’s not worth it. Yeah. It’s like, ’cause that’s, that’s not only the trek, but it’s also me personally doing it, and I just… I w- I think I would’ve felt bad. And so, uh, we pivoted and did, um, have me guess you the origin of your trail name.

Yeah. That went better. Much more appropriate, yeah. I could tell you preemptively just felt very bad. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I knew. I knew. That’s good. Yeah. Yeah, I’m glad you didn’t- Yeah … get written up by HR, ’cause that would’ve been- Yeah. You would’ve had to write yourself up. Ongoing problem. I do like that on this trip you have been named the de facto HR of the trek.

Oh, he’s been HR for a while. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, never mind. I’m just learning about this. Hilarious. Uh, my worst of the trip is the, just the whole first day, the whole thing about it. Uh, the Tuesday be- like, five days before we left for the trip, uh, Hank, one of the twins, had the runny nose and, like, that just look in his eyes.

And, like, I’d… At that point, I knew this was gonna come back to bite me at the exact wrong time. Lo and behold, I got sick, like, three days before we left for the trip. Wake up for the morning of the trip, got like four hours of sleep, uh, s- feeling like ass. Don’t sleep on the plane. We get to Seattle, get in our minivan.

Minivan is fucking trash. Like, somebody, like, shook up a Coke and, like- Oh … sprayed it all over the front seat. Oh, we went right to a gas station to get, like, a couple of snacks, a couple of drinks, waiting for Katie to, to land, and we were like, “This is disgusting.” Yeah. And bought a giant bin of Lysol wipes.

Yeah. And you and I spent, like, 15 minutes wiping down every surface- Everything … we could. Yeah, from head to toe. But Avis, Avis made it right. They, right, they really- Oh, immediately. Yeah. Of course. They really compensated you for that. We, we called to complain, and they’re like, “Yeah, if you take it to get cleaned, we’ll reimburse you up to $20.”

Like, who’s cleaning a car for $20, first of all? We just paid nine bucks for these Lysol wipes. Yeah. And- And then put in manual labor. Yeah. Yeah, at least 20 minutes. Yeah. Uh, so that was a hot start, and then we get probably, let’s say 10 minutes away from the start of the hike. Three miles as the, as the, the road goes.

Yeah. Three miles. And we had driven Probably three- Three and a half hours … three and a half hours at this point Maybe more at that point. Yeah Yeah And, uh, we get the warning light on the dash that the car is overheating, essentially. Yep Uh, and at that point we connect the dots. They, they left a little Jiffy Lube sticker up, and the gas hadn’t been changed in over- Oil

15,000 miles. Oil. Oil, rather. Yeah, that wouldn’t- Like, they don’t change the gas- … in this state. Like, we blame Avis that we ran out of gas. We need a full gas swap, Avis. We drove 15,000 miles and one tank of gas didn’t get us there. No, yeah, the oil was overheating, and- It was at, like, 300 degrees Fahrenheit Yeah, and, and it was- The coolant was- Which, which was maxed out.

The temperature gauge was completely maxed out, and then the coolant was also spiking as well, and leaking. Water falling out of the car. Yeah. I think in technical and mechanical terms, the car was fucked. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That is the technical way to say it. Uh, yeah, we’ll go into more details when we do the actual episode, but, like, I’m confronting being sleep-deprived, sick, a fucking car breaking down after having to clean that shithole, and then it got much better from there.

You’ll get the full story in the actual rundown. But, uh, I actually do think that ended up being a blessing in disguise for me. Yeah. In a couple of ways, I’m sure. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll get to- But I got to sit in the backseat and watch you have an out-of-body experience. Yeah. I was not my best self at all. Uh, there were interactions with the Avis customer support people, and I don’t think I was maybe the nicest.

I actually will back you up on that one. You did fine. You were- You were fine … uh, you were disgruntled. You were polite. Yeah. I- I, I don’t think you lost your shit on- Yeah … on anyone. You were just, were losing your shit internally. Yeah, int- the, my PSI on the inside was- Yeah … hotter than the oil- Back down … in the- I’m sure you were thinking things that- Yeah

didn’t leave your mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. I’m glad that I didn’t say everything that I was thinking, but yeah, my low was just that day. That’s fair. That day was bad. This is not starting well. Yeah, I felt, I felt terrible- Eight more days of this … and the world was crumbling around me. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

And we’ll get a much further rundown on the Lewitt episode, but just wanted to give you guys a taste of what we’ve been up to thus far. It gets better. It definitely gets better. Um, okay, let’s do the triple crown of foods you can’t stop eating. This is brought to you by onX Backcountry, our title sponsor for this road trip.

Thank you very much to them. Please use code TREK70 for 70% off an Elite membership. Or, if you prefer, you can use the URL in the show notes to get a free three-month trial of Elite. You don’t have to enter your credit card or anything. Uh, please do one or the other. They were very nice to support us on this trip, and- And we used it for the Lewitt Trail.

Yeah. We did. It was great. Yeah. It was great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, entirely. Okay. Let’s get ready to talk food. Um- Who wants to go first? You have to introduce the Triple Crown. Didn’t I say it? Oh, I just said it. You did. I did it. Oh, no, you didn’t. Yeah, foods you can’t stop eating. I said that, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh.

Did I not say that? Listen, our brains are mushy right now. I’ll say it again. I, I black out. Yeah, yeah. It’s been a long day. Doing our best. We just drove four hours from Portland. I was trying to pull up my list of my answers. Yeah. Um, I’ll say it again. Triple Crown of Foods you just can’t stop eating. And Jaba had a question before we recorded.

He wanted clarification. This is if something’s in front of you, you literally can’t stop, as opposed to, like, a food that you’ve been addicted to for the duration of your life. Like, this is something where self-control evaporates. I guess I’ll start since I had the clarification. Um, so Um, it’s, for me it’s gotta be, like, if they made Ben & Jerry’s- Mm

in a half gallon, a legit one or otherwise, whatever. You know how they skimp on those things nowadays. But they only make them in pints. I mean, s- That is kinda crazy. Yeah. Wait, I’ve, I’ve missed something. What? What have you missed? What- They only make them in pints. But if they made them in half gallons- Ben & Jerry’s

I would- Oh … eat a Ben & Jerry’s half gallon r- like, entirely every time. Yeah. Like, or until I, like, felt like throwing up. What percentage of the time are you going through the full pint when you- Uh, 98. Yeah. I guess, A, didn’t realize Ben & Jerry’s only did pints. Yeah. B, do you have a go-to flavor? Well- Good question

they probably, they do, like, they do some smaller ones here and there. It, predominantly pints. Mm. Predominantly pints. They might make a bigger one here or there- Mm … but, like, it’s not prevalent whatsoever. I’ve only ever had the pint. Yeah, same. M- more or less. Um, my go-tos, I got a few. So here’s the thing.

Like, uh, I, you can get this shit delivered to my door any hour- Yeah … of the day v- so easily in Denver, and sometimes when I’m feeling, you know, like a fatty, and I’ll order a couple of them, and o- one’s, like, eat now, the other one’s, like, eat tomorrow, and I’ve never gone through two in a row, but if they were both in front of my face and I had, like, no one around, like, no one to, like, j- judge me or, like, feel shame, I would probably eat both.

But, like, I, I will, like, late at night order two very easily. My go-tos happen to be, like, um, I’m a sucker for Milk & Cookies, which is like- Mm-hmm … Cookies & Cream, essentially. Yeah. Or the Mint Chocolate Chip. Yep. Uh, or the Mint Cookies & Cream. Yep. It’s also really good. Um, Phish Food’s a pretty good one, and then I’ll also sometimes get down on the Strawberry Shortca- or- Mm

Strawberry Cheesecake, excuse me. That one’s so good. I like that one. Have you had the Tonight Dough? That’s the Jimmy Fallon one. Uh- Or the Stephen Colbert Americone Dream. I have had both, yes. Um, the ones I don’t like are the ones that are topped, you know the topped ones? Yes. Yeah. Th- I don’t want the, I don’t wanna break through nothing.

I just want soft creaminess. Yeah. And, and the big chunks or whatever, but no topped-ness. I’m good. Give the Tonight Dough a shot. It’s my go-to. I’ve had it. Yeah. It’s good. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I have. Fuck yeah. The Cherry Garcia. Oh, I’ll do that too. That’s really good. I’ve had them all. I don’t think there’s, I don’t think there’s one I haven’t had at this point.

I’ve w- I’ve sampled them all. So ice cr- ice cream in general, but, like, you know, Ben & Jerry’s for sure I feel ice cream is an interesting one for me because I think it might be my favorite food just pound for pound, but I do have some self-control with it and it doesn’t make any sense. I, I understand. It’s like the, it activates the heroin part of my brain.

Like I’m so- I should stop … I’m s- no, I’m so joyful. I guess I, yeah, uh, heroin’s probably one that you abuse. So joyful. But, but like I’m speaking from the frame of mind of like, yeah, this makes me so happy. Like, I couldn’t imagine feeling better than what is going in my mouth right now. Yeah. Well, so the, the, the problem with it as being the one that I can’t…

Like, like it’s, it’s so easily accessible to me. Sure. That’s the part that makes it like… Like, if, if, I don’t know if I wanna steal this from you or, or not. Yeah, don’t. Let- we’ll go through ours and then we can riff. But like, but like if that, if the thing we talked about the other day- Yeah … were in front of my face.

I’m, I’m gonna go for it now. Okay. Yeah. Uh, sorry Kate, I have to go next so you don’t take it. No, please. Yeah. Just all forms of cake, specifically non-ice cream cake. I think I can regulate that. I love ice cream cake, no shade at that. Uh, but like the fucking cake- I- … that we took home from that restaurant, I could- Wait, that was an above average cake.

That was elite. Yeah. That cake was elite. Yeah. I’m shocked- That was an elite cake … I’m shocked any of that cake made its way to me. I, I, I ate a few, a couple bites, and I knew that that needed to get shared. Yeah. For sure. It, it was so fucking good. I saw you took a little extra of the, uh, cream cheese filling in the middle.

No, I didn’t. You ventured up. It’s okay. I don’t blame you. Did- I didn’t. I did not. No, it, it- It was a venture … it had its own pockets of butteriness … it was a venture. It was a venture. I would not lie. In fact, I probably had less than a third. That’s probably true. Yeah, yeah. I might have had more than a third.

Yeah. So- By the way, not that I was noticing, but you did. Uh, that cake was so good, and if we had like a f- like a wedding cake size of that- We wouldn’t go out to dinner … I would, I’m not exaggerating, I would eat 3,500 calories of cake in a sitting. Or s- like certainly I’d wake- But even if it was just a sheet cake with just simple icing and- Yeah

simple sprinkles on top, like I, I would also… Like, like but I don’t r- r- like it’s not readily accessible. When Jenna- Like, no one’s buying shitty sheet cake from the store, and you’re not making it yourself either. We, uh, we’ve got kids’ birthday parties. I’m around cake a lot. Damn. It’s a problem. It’s a real problem.

Do I need to start having kids just for the cake? Yeah, it’s not a bad idea. Um, but yeah, like there’s so many times where Jenna’s like, “This cake’s okay,” and I’m like, “Yeah, it’s okay.” And I have to, like legitimately my way of not overeating it is I just have to make the decision that I’m gonna go throw it in the trash outside, ’cause that’s the only way that I can combat it.

By the way- If you throw it in the inside trash- … you don’t love it … and finish it out? I throw it in the trash outside. You, you don’t love it enough then if you’re throwing cake away. Th- it’s like- I would punch you in the face … it’s like one of those things where like it’s an intervention with a friend who’s having a problem.

Like, “You son of a bitch- … get your shit together.” Like if I can’t just put it away, like next to the fridge or something like that. That’s fair. Like, that’s not gonna work. No, that’s where it’s gonna end up. I need it to be sitting on top of a diaper for me to be like- … “All right, this has crossed the line.”

Maybe. Maybe I won’t have more. Yeah, right. And, and just for, uh, like fun of it, uh, Zach, it’s not the first cake Zach has had on this trip. We also had birthday cake. That’s true. Oh, yeah. Spiced iced birthday cake- Yeah … from the Cougar- Bar and Grill- But you didn’t have to self-regulate … where the co- He didn’t have to- It was just one slice

he was, he was not allowed to have more, but the fact that he was even able to have it was amazing. Yeah. That cake was good. That’s not my favorite. That, that, yeah, that’s not a- That’s not… I’m not looking for spice cake. I do think I could self-regulate with that one. Yeah, it’s different. The spice is- It’s like a stone’s throw from a pumpkin spice- Yeah

and I don’t even- Yeah, yeah … I don’t like that version. It was good. I enjoyed it. Happy birthday to what’s-her-face. Hey, for free, too. Yeah. It was the bartender who serviced our beers- Yeah … brought it to us. Yeah. It’s her birthday. Yeah. We won. But cake’s the problem. Yeah. Moral of the story. Yeah. Cake is a real problem in my life.

What, uh, if you, if you were, if you were choosing, like, let’s just say, you know, obviously, that was a very special cake right there. Yeah. Um, and from, from the Doolin Breakfast Bakery? What was it called? Cafe? Uh, y- one of those two. Yeah, in Van- In Vancouver … Vancouver, Washington. Yeah. It was d- it was good. Um, but if you were to have any cake you wanted, what would it be?

That cake, man. That cake was so- That cake … that cake was so good. That cake. Yeah. That- Okay, so chocolate cake. Uh, I just appreciate really good cake, and that was really good cake. I don’t know if it would be… Like, honestly, just a regular fucking, like, birthday cake from King Soopers with the vanilla frosting and the rainbow sprinkles.

That’s amazing. I go- I’m a big fan of that cake, kind of cake … I go crazy on that shit. For sure, dude. It’s a problem. It’s a problem. I don’t know why it’s so good. It’s t- so simple. Yeah. Um, Katie, would you like to reiterate what you said to me when you came up from, uh, the stairs with the empty cake container?

I apologized. I apologized to you. Four hours prior, you had asked if I wanted to split a cake with you, and I think I looked you right in the eyes and said, “No.” Is this motherfucker crazy? It didn’t look that good in my eyes behind that case, and then I had that first bite of that cake. The… I don’t like chocolate cake.

That cake- You should be a professional cake scout, ’cause that- That cake was crazy. That was good talent recognition there. I, I, I could tell that it was a special cake from a, from the s- from the further distance than you were. Yeah. I’m a cake connoos-eur. Yeah, that cake was nuts. So, uh, Katie, you get two. Um, I’ll go a little different.

I’ll go oysters. Ooh. Not on my list. I think they’re just so small. Fancy. They’re so small. They’re so yummy, and I will never, ever… I’ve never yet reached my limit with oysters. I will go to dollar oyster nights. I will stop when I feel like I’m being rude to the waitstaff. I will not stop when I’m done with the oysters.

Um, I’ve gone with checks. That’s a healthy option. Nice. Well, yeah, but I feel like- I think that’s good … if you have, like, 70 oysters, is that- Yeah, right … good for you? Is, is, is it oysters that allegedly boost your libido? A- aphrodisiac? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I’ve never experienced it- Well, I can, I can tell you-

with the same concept … 40 oysters in- Katie’s like- … your libido is not boosted. Maybe your bowel movements but… ‘Cause I do think my typical, I will stop at around 40 oysters. Uh-huh. But- 40. … I’m nowhere near done. Yeah. I could go for 80. Yeah, that’s fun. That’s- One of these days I will learn to shuck my own, own oysters, and I will do it at home, and it will be…

‘Cause Whole Foods does dollar oysters on Friday. Yeah. And- We’re just texting over here. I learned this from Java. He does not have- I’m trying to learn about oysters … he does not have the ability to manually type. I don’t wanna. You- I’m lazy too. Everything is voice to text. No, I know how to, I don’t wanna Um, 90% of my texting is done from a computer because I hate texting- Really?

on my phone. Yeah. Okay, here we go. Positive health benefits for, uh, oysters according to Cloud. Zinc, selenium, uh, B vitamins, iron, protein, omega-3 fatty acids, copper. Good for heart health apparently. Negative, potential negative, uh, but not good for pregnant people, immunocompromised individuals. Which is ironic, ’cause if it’s making you all horny Uh-oh.

I feel like I’m gonna get copper poisoning. Like, I’m gonna have the- Yeah. … the surplus of all of these things. Yeah. Um- I think copper’s really good for your, like, skin or something. People are injecting themselves with copper peptides now for the, uh, whatever. People are injecting themselves with all sorts of things.

A lot of shit, yeah. So, so the, so, like, pregnant people can’t have, like, fish, like raw fish, that kinda stuff. That’s right. That’s what I, that’s what I was saying. I’m sorry. So- No, I say that like I’m pregnant. I’m like trying, stopping … foodborne illness risk for the elderly people, people with liver disease.

Um, and then cooking oysters eliminates this risk obviously. But also it’s heavy metals, like you said, copper, um, cadmium, other stuff like that. Uh, it’s high in cholesterol. People have shellfish allergies obviously, and then there’s a sustainability issue with oyster farming practices. Sorry, guys. Sorry.

You’re ruining the planet. Yeah. Uh, needless to say, the nutritional profile is better than cake. Yeah, needless to say. Yeah. Uh, second one though, not nutritionally dense, chips. I think that’s my- Damn it. You’ve taken one of mine. I don’t know what the serving- Do you have a specific- Yeah, I have a specific chip- No

that I was gonna say. I, I mean, I guess I, I can stop a, a corn chip situation. Actually, no, not even. I can stop a corn chip situation. I love Fritos. Write it down. I, I was thinking right now if I had Fritos in front of me, I couldn’t stop. Yeah. And it’s less I crave them, and it’s more- Wait, a Frito is a corn chip.

Well, that’s what I’m saying. I take it back. I couldn’t stop- Oh, okay … a corn chip situation. Yeah. Yeah. Uh- Corn chips are delicious … if one is in front of me, if you have the family size bag in front of me, I, my brain doesn’t know when to stop reaching and grabbing and eating. Yeah. It just- Well, it’s a- It w- it wouldn’t stop until the chips are gone

it’s also, like, the bag’s not actually full anyways. Exactly. Yeah. It’s half full. Yeah. So it’s fine. It’s one serving. Every thru-hiker knows that because they pop the bag and then- Yep … put it in their pack. What up? Yeah. It’s half full. That’s- It is half full. If you gave me just one of those little things you hand out after kids soccer games, I would eat it and be satisfied.

I wouldn’t need more, but if you handed me the family size bag, I’d just keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, the- They have the top scientists in the world making those as addictive as possible. I did listen to, I think, a podcast about this at one point where a lot of the foods nowadays are engineered to be initially crunchy, but then immediately dissolve in your mouth.

Mm. And our brains are wired to be really happy when- The crunch … foods are kind of mushy- Oh, really? … or chew very quickly. Interesting. If you think about the healthier things that are maybe less fun, like a celery- Yeah … gets very stringy. A chip, even though it’s crunchy right at the start, it immediately mushes out.

That’s wild. Interesting. Um, getting back to the corn chip situation- Oh, I can’t stop that … um, Fritos And I’m not saying they’re necessarily healthy, I’m not trying to make that claim, but what I can say is it’s like the one chip with the least ingredients in it. Three. Three ingredients. What are the three?

Wait, corn- Corn, corn oil- Salt … salt. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. That’s it. Wow. Now, if you eat 100,000 of them- Mm … you’re over-salting, you’re over-corning, you’re over- … corn oiling. All corned up. All corned up. Do you ever do the thing where you look at the nutritional label and it’ll say one gram of fiber per- Yeah.

five servings, and then in my head I’m like, “Well, I’m getting my fiber.” Yeah. No, healthy. Never, by the way. I’m eating my Flaming Hot Cheetos, I’m like, “There, there is some fiber.” There’s fiber. Fiber. Yeah. There’s some… There’s one gram of protein. Yeah, right? Um, okay. My next one is, I could just do sweets the entire time.

I’m not gonna do that, though. I have a sweet tooth problem. Uh, I’m gonna go wings. I- I, I think it’s because there’s not that much meat on a wing, so I can always justify grabbing one more. So you’re trying to say there’s not enough meat on the bone? There’s not enough meat on the bone. But I’ve never gotten, like, served a plate of wings and haven’t eaten the entire thing.

Like, I’ve never taken wings home. Then you’ve never eaten, like, the hottest, like, Afterburner wings from, uh, The Rockrest, have you? I heard that you burnt your penis with that. But- What? I mean, among other holes. Yeah, for sure. You wanna tell that story? Yeah. Uh, not really. Uh, I mean, I could. I think the actual story is less incriminating than what I just said, so you maybe wanna clear the record on that.

Yeah, but I don’t wanna steal your time. No, go ahead. Uh, the ch- editor-in-chief of Gear Junkie- Uh-huh … a man named Adam- Yeah … uh, he and I went to- Adam R- Ruggieri? What’s his name? Ruggiero. Yeah, he’s the man. Rug- I believe it’s pronounced Ruggiero. Yeah. We all- I only call him Adam. Yeah. Uh, good guy, we talk all the time, even still.

But he was, when he was still living in Denver at the time several years ago. Mm-hmm. And o- over on your way to, uh, Golden from the mall, uh, the Denver West Mall, there is a biker bar over there called The Rockrest. And it’s, it looks like a biker bar, it’s definitely a biker bar. But they do incredible bar food there, too, and they give you a bucket of, like, the whole bat wing chicken wing.

Yeah. Like, I mean, this is the whole thing, right? The wings are kinda disgusting looking. They’re- They’re fri- Well, that’s like, that’s like the chicken. I understand, but like- It’s like a half a chicken … I want the flat separated from the drumstick. I know, I know. Like, it does look like a bat wing, like- Yeah, it does.

You guys, it doesn’t take that much work to separate these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they give you a bucket of it, and they literally have the Afterburner f- flavor. Like, uh, you know, there’s all kinds of sauces and dry rubs you can get. Then they have afterburner. And when my buddy’s like, “We’ll try the afterburner,” and I, and I was just like, “Sure, yeah, we’ll try the afterburner.”

And the waitress made no mention of actually how hot these were. Yeah. And I, like, sometimes, like, y- you know, you’d like to, like, get, like, a waiver or something if it’s gonna be, like, the kinda thing that you can’t touch other parts of your body. Man, I’m telling you, like, we started, like, like, eating these as fast as possible.

Yeah. Like, and then by, like, the third one, like, our eyes were, like, melting down our faces. Java? My buddy’s… What’s up? I have a clarifying question. Yeah, sure. What part of your body didn’t get untouched? Uh, well, we’re gonna get to that. All right? It’s about to happen. Um, so we, my, Adam’s like, “I have to go to the bathroom.”

And he, like, goes to the bathroom, and doesn’t think to not touch his dick while he goes to pee. And he, he’s gone for a while. And I’m like, “What is he do-“, and I like stopped eating. Like, I’m just standing there like, like sitting at … And we’re sitting outside on a picnic table, and I’m like, “I can’t eat any more of this already,” like, “and I don’t want- know what to do with my hands right now.”

And, and like it was a small bathroom, so I had to wait for him to come back. And he came back, and he’s like, “Dude, I got it on my dick.” And I’m like, “No!” I’m like, “Oh, God.” And he’s like, he’s like, I- He said he took, he said he took the back of the toilet lid off- … and was splashing it on his balls. Trying to clean his dick off from the fucking wings.

You dropped this poor man’s first and last name, full legal name on the internet- Oh, he- … and then followed it with this story? He didn’t have any toilet water on his dick. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he w- it was struggle bussin’ hard. This is my introduction to this man. Yeah. Adam, if you’re out there, I hope you’re doing okay.

I’ll, I’ll tell him I told this story, for sure. We’ll, we’ll make sure he gets this. Um- Don’t. But yeah. But so like he comes ba- and he’s like in a bad way. Yeah. Like, he’s not good. Yeah. You know? And I’m like, I’m like, “I think I need to go to the bathroom, too.” And I’m the idiot that then didn’t even listen-

to what just happened to him, and I literally do the same fucking thing. I’m like, “Oh, God.” I’m like, “How? Why?” Like, you j- your initial like inclination is to just pee like you normally do. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I did the same thing, and it, it got rough. But th- th- this isn’t even the worst of it. Like, that’s just superficial burning.

Like, the real problem was later, like that night. The first poop. Like, we … He had, he had to bike home down to downtown Denver. He cycled there. It was like eight, nine, 10 miles. Like, we’re talking like an hour and a half of like his crotch fucking burning on a s- on a bicycle. I, I just gotta dri- drive home.

But like literally later that night we were texting each other. He’s like, he’s like, “I think I might go to the emergency room.” Um, he, like we were like shitting blood. Oh my God. Like, it was like that’s how painful, like hot this shit was. Our poo was like a, a fucking toxic fucking waste. Just battery acid coming out of your

Yeah. Do they still sell the wings? I’m- Absolutely … wondering who would try them. We were like, “Why the fuck didn’t they tell us how hot these things were?” Yeah. And I always tell every time people go to that place, I was like, “Get the Afterburner.” ‘Cause I need somebody else to feel that pain. Yeah. You’re like, “It’s actually not that spicy.

If, if it feels spicy, just eat two or three more, it goes away.” Yeah. Yeah. So- Wings … wings. No, that was better than anything I was gonna say, so. Um, yeah. So mine would have to be- Um, this is crazy, and it’s a, it’s a… You know, like the last couple mornings I’ve been baking eggs, like scr- scrambled eggs, cheesy scrambled eggs.

Yeah. Like, you can only eat so many cheesy scrambled eggs. Right. Right? Hmm. But, you know- Can… How, how many do you think you can eat? You make… I know how you make pretty good cheesy scrambled eggs. Yeah. I mean, they were good. Those were, those were solid. They were good. Uh, with Kerrygold butter, that’s the secret.

Um, but how many… Uh, like if you were to make eggs for yourself at, for, and you were starving, how many would you make? I’ve always- Scramble, scramble … felt like two leaves me so hungry, and three is an impossible number to finish. Two and a half is the number. Okay. I mean, I don’t disagree. Like, uh, like for me it’s more like half a dozen.

Like six is what- Six is like, kinda like the baseline of what I wanna eat- Sure, sure … scrambled eggs-wise. Three is not enough. Four and five I can deal with. Six is what I want. More than that, it can start getting pretty filling pretty quick after six for me. I don’t know. What about you? How many, how many scrambled eggs?

Uh, I’m usually doing three. Okay. All right. Bare minimum? Yeah. Or just three? I’m, I’m trying to get to 30 grams of pro- This is how my brain works. Uh, yep. Uh, so it’s like 18 grams of protein for the eggs itself. Yeah. I’ll have like a couple pieces of wheat toast, uh, and then some spinach. Okay. I’m getting about 30.

All right. Here’s where I’m gonna s- throw the curve ball part. I could eat two dozen, uh, like deviled eggs. Like- Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, like deviled eggs just ha- are on a different scale of what you w- eat. I don’t know what it is about the deviled egg part that makes it not as filling or less desirable. No, I wanna eat 1,000 of these things.

Concur. I love deviled eggs. Yeah. Deviled eggs are awesome. That… You’re s- I’ve never thought it. You’re so right. That and string cheese versus mozzarella sticks. Oh, yeah. Mm. Yeah, right? Like, wait, wait, which one? You want, you can eat more string cheese or mozzarella? I would never eat 10 string cheeses. Yeah.

I just ate three like a- But 10 mozzarella- 20 minutes ago … sticks would go down in a, in a minute. Yeah. Okay, fair. Yeah, that’s a great point, for sure. I agree. Oh, and here’s another way, like, like how many times are you just eating like five tortillas? But you fry ’em up and put ’em in triangles, and w- we’ll eat, like, eight pounds of salsa with it.

Yeah. Potato chips is a great one. Yeah. Yeah. You can, like, go to a Mexican restaurant, you’re probably eating 300 calories before your food come out. Bare minimum. Yeah. Like, if they just keep bringing ’em out- Yeah … dude, we’re just… We’re f- firing those back. Yeah, definitely. All right, that’s my second one.

Deviled eggs. What’s your third? You get one more. What’s my… Oh, I’m going through? Yep. Snake draft. Oh. Um, well, so you, you said chips. There is a particular type of chip. I, like, potato chips are not… I, I can regulate myself on, on regular potato chips. Um, but this particular barbecue potato chip that is only regionally sold in a very small multi-county, um, uh, radius around where I’m from.

They’re called Middleswarth Barbecue Chips, and Zach, I have let you have some before- They’re good … on more than one occasion, I think. They’re real good. And only in the last few… I even had them sponsor me for a couple of hikes for a little while. It was- They’re not greasy. They’re not greasy. Yeah. They’re not.

In fact, they, they, they, A, they’re cooked in lard. Mm. Middlesworth? Middleswa- warth. Warth. W-A-R-T-H. It’s all one word. Middleswarth. It is a local family from the town of Middleburg. Um, and yeah, they just make the banging-est barb- the, whatever the, the, the spices and, and seasonings they use, they… It’s in a very addictive combination of, of flavor that’s happening, and, and the not greasy part is what makes it po- like, ’cause you…

How many Lay’s chips until you’re like, “I feel gross”? You know? Yeah. They’re greasy. Yeah. A million. And I, I… Like, if I eat a bag of, of like Lay’s or something like that, like I’ll feel gross. Yeah. I’ll feel like literally… Like, I’ll feel like I have grease sitting in my stomach. Yeah. Middleswarth sells 12-ounce resealable bags.

Oh, that’s nice. Yeah, tho- oh, that’s the… Yeah, that’s the, that’s the shit you want right there. Big time. Are you resealing those? Is it, does it say The Weekender on it? No. When I was a kid, they used to come in a giant cardboard barrel. Like, were they… I mean, we’re talking, like, I don’t know, maybe, like, 80 ounces of chips, man.

It was like- They do have three-pound bulk bags. That’s the shit. That’s the shit. I think that’s what you brought over- Yep … for one of the parties- Yep … that we were hosting. Yeah. It was, like, a body bag of chips. Yep. And they were very good. Um, yeah, so they call them Kitchen Fresh. I don’t know why they say the term Kitchen Fresh, but, like, that, th- to me, I think of kitchen, the Kitchen Fresh chip, and it’s not greasy.

It’s light. It’s crisp. Mm. And, like, I, I would love to have just even, like, a jar of whatever that seasoning is to, like, make other food taste like it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s a good one. Yep. Uh, my last one, again, I could go all sweets, but I’m gonna switch it up here. I have a real problem, especially at a movie theater.

Movie theater popcorn. How, like, like, a ton of extra butter? Any extra butter? No extra butter? Where you at? I just say y- when they say, “Do you want butter?” I always say yes. Yes. So whatever that amount is. Yeah, yeah. We go to Regal Cinemas, and it comes in, like, a fucking, like, bathtub-sized bucket. Big, big bin.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and there’s something about that butter that makes you feel terrible. Like, when I make popcorn at home, I don’t get the sensation, and I also can’t stop eating that. But something about that butter makes me feel bad, and I still- Want it … even, like, once my stomach is, like- You want it

hurtling inside- Yeah … I still keep going. It- Just, like, the s- the salt- It’s like engine degreaser … the butter. Yeah. Th- there’s something about it that is, uh, both terrible and impossibly addictive. Are you smart enough- No … to have the Regal Cinema app? No. Well, then you’re wasting free popcorn- Yeah? … left and right.

Okay. Noted. I mean, oh, dude, download the app. It’s free. It’s, like… And you have your Regal Cinema Club card. Yeah. And anytime you make a purchase, you use your QR code. You get points. You get a lot of points. Fuck yeah. All right, that’s a good tip. From just going to the movies. Yeah. From all of that. Love that.

And I, and, like, literally every time I go in, I have, like, points for, like, a small popcorn and a small drink. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Noted. Yeah. My last one is any small fruit, like a- Hm … raspberry, blackberry, cherry, pomegranate, lychee, whatever. Poppable. Anything that- What about… So strawberry, you said?

Strawberry, yeah. Any- And you forfeited- … poppable fruit … an entire bowl of strawberries the other day. My thing, strawberries might be big. I wouldn’t even call those, I guess, a small fruit. Not q- ’cause I was also eating the stems on the strawberries. ‘Cause blueberries. You were eating the stems? It was… Yes. Is that a thing?

You can. No, I don’t think so. No, you can. I just felt bad leaving- What? I did… What? Just now that I’m saying it out loud, it doesn’t make sense. I think- It definitely doesn’t Immediate regret. Re-record. Yeah. I thought it was, like, learning, like, yeah, you can eat the tops of celery. That’s actually good for you.

I didn’t know that- Well, I mean, you can. It was fine. Yeah, it’s edible. It’s just- It’s, it’s fine. I didn’t know that. It, it’s edible. It just doesn’t taste that good. Yeah. I was walking around trying to pack, and I didn’t… I had just a handful of these strawberries. Yeah. I didn’t wanna keep walking over to that one tiny trash can in the kitchen.

It was a very small trash can, yeah. So I was just eating them- And, and you… It, it did open by itself. Yeah, you had to, like- Yeah … yeah. Yeah, it was a thing. But- And then it closed by itself though … I more mean any Poppable fruit, like a little carton of blackberries. Mm-hmm. Yep. I would just devour that in one sitting.

Yep. Uh, and for context, the strawberries that we’re talking about- Oh, God … from just the other day were freshly picked as we were pulling into our, like, rural Airbnb. They were so good. This woman handed… They were the plumpest, r- ripest, per- most perfect strawberries I’ve ever seen in my life. Clearly they had no pesticides on them whatsoever.

Didn’t even need to wash them. They- They were so good … awesome. They were so good. Yeah. I regretted not bringing them all on the hike. Yeah. All right. Honorable mentions, just firing them off. Cereal. Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. Cereal for me is like three bowls at a time. Oh, interesting. Oh, yeah, dude. What kind?

All of them, but I love granola, which I know is not a hip answer. You mean, like, you’re like a Stone Soup and Grape Nuts. Yeah. I don’t– We don’t buy unhealthy cereal. If we had it, I would eat the fuck out of it. I mean, when I was- Three kids. What? Yeah. Unhealthy cereal? Uh, when I was a kid, it was like Count Chocula, Oh’s.

Oh’s was a big one. Oh, yeah, Toasted Oh’s. Like, is that what you mean? Uh, I forget what it… It, it’s one of those- It’s like a Cheerio, but that’s like honey and- There’s like a– It’s like crunchy in the middle. I forget. Yep. Yep. I know what you mean. Um, Frosted Mini Wheats. Yeah. Um- The Raisin Bran, like, Crunch.

It was, like, slightly sweeter. Yep. It was almost like Frosted Flakes. There’s Kru- there’s like clusters in it. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of, I love clusters. Uh-huh. Remember those? Yeah. Those are the bangs. For sure. Um, I- I had sushi on mine. Sushi’s a great one. I will eventually fill up. I mean, y- I go to all you can eat sushi all the time, but- Yeah.

It will– I will leave feeling sick. Yep. I’m a Sushi Okura buffet fan. Or not buffet, all you can eat fan, excuse me. Yeah. Donuts. You, you know where Okura is. Yeah. We’ve been there with, uh- We- With, with Cuckoo. We have done it together after the Golden Gauntlet. We did like 28 miles- Yeah … and ended there, and yeah.

Yeah. We ate our fill. Yeah. Uh, donuts for me. I can’t have one donut. That’s not possible. What kind of donut? Doesn’t matter. Uh… But, uh, in the Denver area, I think Lamar’s does the best donut. Lamar’s is really good. I’m not a Winchell’s fan personally. Winchell’s is great. I like Winchell’s. I’ve, I’ve had some bad ones.

I do Vot- I do Voodoo. Doesn’t matter, the shittiest donut. Mm-hmm. I mean, grocery store donuts or whatever, I can take or leave those. But, like, real donuts, I’m having six. I like the w- vanilla cream-filled ones. I don’t even– I shouldn’t even like it. Like, it shouldn’t even be a, a donut that, like, people get a lot, but it’s the one that I crave for some reason.

That white cream filling is delicious. Fuck yeah. All right. Let’s wrap this up ’cause we got a soccer game to go to, guys. Ooh. Yeah. Holy shit, it’s already 6:30. Um, mailbag. Okay, you want this, or you want me to do it? Um… Or Jabaroni? I could do it if I pull it up. I’ll start it off, and then you take over.

Excellent. “I’ve got a poop story. I’ve been backpacking for a little over two years, and on my last trip of my first year, my poop event happened. We were backpacking the Hoh River Trail in Olympic National Park in September. That just happens to be elk rut season. Hiking in the first night was amazing. We saw 17 horny elk looking for love across the trail in front of us.

Don’t worry, we kept our distance. Every time we stopped to filter water, you can look down the river and see larger silhouette of elk in the distance.” It also happened to be a full moon and a blue moon that night. I do feel like it affects them in some way, because we heard constant bugles echoing through the rainforest all night, keeping us on edge.

The first morning, we woke up to elk prints around our tents. I’m quite a regular pooper, so first thing in the morning, I went to find my spot, dug my hole, and assumed the position. While in my deep squat, something shakes the bushes. I’m worried it’s a horny elk. Then a creature emerges that can only be, that can only…

That I can only describe as if a chicken and a piggy bank had a baby. Later discovered it was a grouse. Uh-huh. I am already highly afraid of birds, then put in the most vulnerable position I could be in. We make eye contact the entire time. As I finish cleaning up, he breaks eye contact and waddles away.

Probably the most terrifying poop of my life. I love the podcast. I’ve learned so much. Your tips and tricks have allowed my base weight to go from 27 to 29 pounds down to 11 or 14 pounds. After two years of listening at work, I finally caught up just to have Chaunce leave. I do love Jess, though. Her Celsius electrolyte drink and approach to making her own dehydrated meals has become part of every backpacking trip.

You guys have given me a question that I’ve asked everyone, “What would you give up, kissing or sauce?” Mm. I’m happy to report 66% would give up kissing, 33% would give up sauce, and 1% refused to answer. Interesting. I’m curious how big the sample size was. Sadly, now I have to wait for new episodes. I guess I’ll go back to re-listen to Jess’s Wonderland Trail episode, or go watch it on YouTube.

Return shameless plug. Okay, bye. Victoria. Thank you so much, Victoria. Which kissing is the right answer to give up- Yeah, espe- … for sure … especially as a married person. I’ve, I’ve been over this one, but there’s other ways to get your, uh, sensual fill. But there’s- I just really like sauce. Yeah, sauce is too important.

Sauce is too important. Dry, food can be too dry to give up sauce. Yeah. Let’s put it that way. For sure. Uh, thank you, Victoria. If you guys wanna hear your mailbags read on this podcast, [email protected] is where you can reach us, or go to backpackerradio.com and there’s a mailbag form right there for you.

Five-star review. This is from 97gamecock. Drunken Noodles, spicy show needs its own trail name I don’t know what that means I, I’m not… Maybe, like, we need our, a trail name for the show, like separate from Backpacker Radio. We’ll see. Read it, read it again. Just A Spicy Show Needs Its Own Trail Name. Hmm. Yeah.

Send in your trail name ideas Backpacker Radio is the, is the name But that’s the, that’s its, uh, government name. It needs a trail name. Okay, so it needs a spicy name. Yeah. Uh, we’ll, yeah, we’ll workshop that. Okay, we’ll workshop some spicy names. I wanna hear your guys’ ideas as well. Well, I mean, there’s, like, you had, like, the Cinnamon Connection- Back in the day, but now-

Literal Spice … I have, I have no gingers around me- That’s true … so we have to reset. So, all right, we’ll workshop. Yep. Uh, thank you to Gamecock for that. If you guys wanna hear your review read on this podcast, head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us any number of stars. Just not one, two, three, or four.

Screenshot it, email us, [email protected], and we will send you a Backpacker Radio sticker. Those stickers were going like hotcakes at Trail Days this weekend. Love that. Thank you to our title sponsors. That is both ONX Backcountry. Again, use the URL in the show notes to get a free three-month Elite membership.

You don’t have to enter your credit card or anything. Or if you want Elite for a full year, you can use code TREK70 for 70% off your Elite membership. Thank you to ONX. They made this entire trip possible. And the other one, is this, is this Topo? I think this one’s Topo. Yeah, it’s Topo. Uh, saw a lot of Topos out at Trail Days- Definitely So many

this weekend. Um, but you can also use our code there. What is the most recent code? TREK15HIKE for 15% off a full-price pair of Topo Athletics at topoathletic.com. Topos are the best. I used the Pursuit 2s on this most recent hike. They worked like a charm. They always do. I didn’t eat shit once, even though Katie was desperately waiting for that to happen, ’cause I had some very good tread on those Pursuits.

Wanted to get it on video. Yep. Super big thank you to our Bob Peoples Award winners from Patreon. That is Alex and Misty with Navigators Crafting, Alex Kindle, Austin McDaniel, Bill Jensen, Brett Mullins AKA Cruisy, Brian Alsop- Fables … Carl Lobster Hood, Christopher Marshburn, Coach from Marine Outdoors, Eric Casper- The Friendly Ghost

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Louis Shaman, 13 Adventures, Timothy Han- Solo … and Tracy Trigger. Fonz. Nice. Thanks to our guy, Paulie, at Old Man Murph’s Coffee Roasters. Go to ommcr.com and get yourself some delicious beans. Paulie’s the best. We love Paulie very much. You can follow us on social, @backpackerradio on Instagram, TikTok, Threads, facebook.com/backpackerradio.

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Uh, Appalachian Trials and Pacific Crest Trials are my books. Be very grateful for a review. Leave Tron’s one as well. Subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on YouTube. Sup tube. And that is it for today’s show. We gotta go to a soccer game. Thank you so much for listening, and happy hiking.

Bye. Laters.